On getting a utility to admit an error! (GrandPAH)

Steamhead (in transit)

a private company, or a government agency?

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Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

like pulling hen's teeth(G)

A customer called in a panic: an $800.00 water bill had arrived. We, thinking a service line had gone bad, called PA 1-call to get all underground stuff marked so we could excavate - if necessary.

I rushed out to meet the water co official. We both arrived at the same time. PA 1-call utility marker showed up within minutes. Funny, no wet spot in the 300' stretch from meter-pit to home & given the gallons supposedly used, I'd have expected to see a swamp!

Water co guy says he'll read the meter from his truck and returns to remark how odd it looks. Seems the folks living there are what they call 'regular'. Their water usage doesn't change month-to-month & has been steady for years. So he gets the paperwork out.

Here's what happened, he says. The meter head was swapped out with a rebuilt head and they forgot to take a final reading on the old head. The rebuilt head's start reading accounts for the huge bill they got.

End of story, right? Wrong!

I'd bet I now have at least six hours time (over two months) invested in trying to get this straightened out. The water co has investigated this a number of times, yet never calls back. I feel like I'm now in Rocky VI(G). Just got off the phone (yet another higher-up muck) and heard - once again - "I'll call you back. I need to investigate what happened here."

Meanwhile, the Octogenarians remain distressed over their billing. And, no, they did not have a run-away water closet during the time-frame.


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Paul Fredricks_3

\" I'm sorry sir,

but a 'Correct Error' button does not appear on my screen. I'll have to get a supervisor". (music on hold for the next 20 minutes, then you get disconnected)

Buy one of Dan's bricks and smash your head into it. That will probably be just as productive.

Good for you for trying to help these people out.

Al Corelli_2

Wait a minute!

"Correct Error"?!?!?!?

Isn't that an oxymoron?

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bob young

cave men

the city workers act like it is their money . nothing but a power trip & abuse of authority. the d.e.p. in n.y.c. is beyond belief. worst agency ever. stone age methods.

scott w.

Can the couple complain to the state public utility commision.
Utility companies do not like complaints filed. Looks bad on the next rate case.

Is this a municipal owned water company? If so a call to the local state legislator can usually speed things up and get a quick result!!!

Weezbo

my Thought.....

it will NEVER HAPPEN.

nope.

uh uh..

no matter what, somehow, it is always "On You" ...

Perry_3

Call the local TV station and let them \"investigate\"

First step is a complaint to the Public Service Commission. Most states requate municpalities as well.

2nd step (if the first one does not work): Call the local TV station - the one that does "consumer service - solve the complaint" investigations: The city will clear it up fast once they know it's going to appear on the 6:00 news....

Perry

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_5

the soggy saga continues

I’m traveling the honey draws flies route first.

The HO’s are the only ones who can file a complaint with the PUC (or someone with power of attorney acting for them).

The first WC responder & I met at the meter pit and he told me these folks are steady as a rock – usage wise. He showed me a print-out of their monthly average that spanned more than a year’s time & their bills didn’t vary by much more than a buck up or down. He then returned to his truck to get a current reading and indicated the usage he was reading since their previous read was right in line with their typical use habits. The hundreds of thousands of gallons on the wild billing did not jive with him & he retrieved additional paperwork. “Ah-hah!” he exclaimed and showed me the water co report indicating a crew had changed out their old meter head with a rebuilt unit – a standard practice evidently. According to him, the crew had simply failed to take a last reading from the old meter & the new one had a much higher start-number – hence the error. He assured me he’d get their bill straightened out and call me.

I relayed that to the HO’s, who were visibly relieved.

He never called.

So, a few weeks later, the HO’s call me, which prompted me to call a contact in the water co who we deal with regarding backflow issues. Turns out he’s the large in charge regarding this meter issue. Tells me they’re going to send out a forensics team to investigate. Says he’ll call me back.

No call.

Several weeks pass & I call him back. Says they’ve cut the HO’s bill by about $400.00. That still leaves the old folks hamstrung with a huge water bill. Evoking Larry the Cable Guy, I told him “That ain’t right.” He says don’t shoot the messenger and that I’ll need to call another guy higher up.

I call. The higher up dude again reiterates that the water co had reduced their bill. His tone implied that the old folks should be delighted to pay the balance! I tried explaining that the HO’s were still being billed for an error created by the water co & that was not fair. He stonewalled, but said he needed to investigate the issue! I guess that would be an investigation of the investigation of an investigation?

So, there we are: the customer & me – awaiting a phone call. No doubt I’ll be placing the next call rather than receiving one. It a pattern now that I fully expect to be repeated.

One way or the other, they’ll drop the charges and bill these folks based on the long-term usage average. If not, the HO’s are angry enough that getting them to file with the PUC won’t be a difficult task.

J.C.A._3

Hey Grand Pah,

Honey does in fact draw flies....but bull droppings attract more. It sure sounds like your getting the later, might as well "get r done".

Chris

Tony_23

That sounds like

A local municipal power authority couldn't seem to figure out their new computerized billing program. Residents were getting $ 200 bills instead of $ 40 bills. A 3 story with only the top floor in use was billed $ 10k a month, which is more than when it was full of tenants.
As 80 yr old people are, they paid and then tried to get it corrected. Same with the commercial owner.

The clerk's position was "they paid it, so it must be okay". The Mayor backed her up. The clerk is gone, board members have shifted power and the mayor is stifled. Good thing about a small town, SOMEBODY on the street knows you when you go out

bob young

disputed billing

i always tell my customers ,if you feel your bill is way out of line, do not pay it in full. pay half, pay something. if you pay full disputed bil, chances of getting it adjusted are not good.

scott w.

30 days

If 30 days have gone by with no success honey will not work.It is time to bring out the stingin bee. There is absolutely no excuse for the utility not investigating the error and get back to the couple with a resolution. The couple should pay only what they would normally be billed for that particular month.

Document this issue in a letter to the utility. State all of the facts, times and dates and names off utility company employees and what was discussed and what the utility employees said. Send this off to any employee that you spoke with if you have an address and name. Call the billing department and find out where written complaints are to be mailed.

Each state utility commision has rules and regulations on complaints filed. Have the couple do this ASAP as it will help to preserve their rights to get this complaint resolved

Hope the couple is successful. Post back with results

Scott H

Leo

Dave you haven't said

Dave,

You haven't said, is the utility making threats or claims against an unpaid balance? They can be sneaky and just place a lein on the property title.

Leo

Dave Yates (PAH)

just

past-due reminders and now the reduced billing with a reminder that it's past-due. It would be folly for the utility to file anything & would surely set loose a chain of events that would give the utility a very large black eye. The owner is a well-known retired businessman whose stature in the community is very high. He's pretty ticked off at this point and has held back while I try getting results. If I hadn't met with that first meter reader, no one except the water co would know what really happened. Not too sure they'd have fessed up otherwise, but you never know.

Rich W

Sounds like yer HO got PUC'd allrighty.

Am I missing something? I have never seen a meter without a serial number. Get the old bills and find the number. Compare it to the new meter and take some pics. We had a similar case 10 or 12 yrs ago- it still took 3 months to get the bill straight.

Good luck.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

You can't make this stuff up - new twists and turns!

OK, here's what has transpired. When I called back & spoke with the "boss" at the York Water Co, he indicated he'd need to investigate the investigation from an earlier investigation. He did & I called him back. They agreed to drop the bill and bill the old folks for their average monthly billing.

Should have got that in writing, is bout all I can say because the old folks got a termination notice on Sat. 10-days to pay the outrageous bill or you're terminated! Needless to say, they're beside themselves.

But no one could be reached today as they were off on holiday, so tomorrow I'll try again.

But there's a new twist that's a result of The Wall that may just be the ticket needed.

A guy looking for help here was sent my way. I've been helping him get his problems fixed & noticed his signature line in the e-mails: he's a lawyer with the PA PUC! So, I give him the details & he's ready to help my customers. I asked him to hold off (last week) until we exhaust the diplomatic routes. We're just about at that point.

Reminds me of that Disney ride - It's a Small World After All. The Wall extends its reach beyong hydronics!

More to come......

J.C.A._3

GrandPAH,

Was that a Giggle? Are you sending out a "Happy Dance" through ESP?

It IS a small world, but I still wouldn't want to paint it. Sounds like your on the trail, good luck to all. Chris

Leo

I believe

I am a firm believer that everything happens for a reason.

Leo

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

imagine

I hadn't met with that first meter guy and been told of the error.....

How many others - like these folks - are getting hood-winked every day.....

How easy it is for a utility to cover up an error and bill the mistake to unsuspecting consumers....

How simple the resolution could have been......

Never thought I'd see the day when our local water co would act this way. Much respect has been lost that I'd gained over almost four-decades in our dealings. Trust takes a holiday.

As you've noted - I am on this trail like a blue-tick-hound-dog now. I'm beginning to get a bit peeved! We're way beyond ridiculous and heading towards the theater of the absurd. One last bit of honey to slather on the bread tomorrow & then all bets are off.

scott w.

Didn't know that this was a Pa. utility issue. That is what the Bureau of Consumer Service at the PUC is for; help the customer when not getting a resolution from the utility.
Don't know why the customer went though all the agravation when a simple phone call to BCS would help solve the problem.

It really isn't fair to say the utility is purposely trying to rob the customer. This sounds like one of those "Isn't my problem let someone else handle it". Nobody at the water company cared to see this issue resolved. What a shame!

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

yes & no

At each level, the water co employees have stated they would get this resolved and each one also promised they'd call back. Each one failed to follow through.

The customer did not want to get the PUC involved as they have a concern they'll be targeted for retaliation if they go that route.

However, the ten-day termination notice changes everything.

scott w.

retaliation

One thing you don't have to worry about is retaliation. A utility that gets caught doing something like that runs the risk of being severely punished by the PUC. Most of the public doesn't realize the onerous rules and regs a utility must follow. A well run utility doesn't want complaints at the PUC level and most try to get things resolved before it reaches that level. Makes the record of service look bad when going for a rate increase.

All the levels this complaint took, I am surprised that it wasn't resolved. Sometimes a verbal threat of going to the PUC with a complaint is enough to get things resolved.

I used to work for a utility company.


Keep the wall informed of the progress on this. Am curious as to how how long it takes to get a resolution.

Matt Undy

What about talking to their city council member who is responsible for representing their interests with either the city run water utility or awarding the franchise to a commercial utility?

I realize it has now escalated a bit beyond this, but this may have been an option earlier.

Matt

Perry_3

I disagree

Municipailites and city utilities are the worst.

Not all are bad - and there are some good ones; but too many of them feel that since they are the "government" that they can do whatever they want and not be responsible.

Public utilities would never allow this situation to not be corrected. Good municipailies and cities would have solved this long ago.

How to shake up a bad one - and get them on the road to being good. Let the Utility Commission hammer them, let them take the black eye. The city councle will become involved (they will have to) people will demand changes - everyone will get read the riot act on customer service - and changes will be made. Several people will "retire" too - and the utiltiy will be better off for it.

Sorry it has to be that way - but it's not like they didn't have a chance - and some people need to learn the hard way before they will change.

There are places where you want the government to interveine. My city local utility found that a lot of the problems were from several people involved with imbezlement when they started investigaing complaints on things.... None of us have any idea why this utility is being non-responsive. Let the formal investigation begin.

Perry

Weezbo

Perry, are you speaking of something you have actually known

to have occurred or might there be a twinge of idealist optimism woven into the observation:)

i am not picking at you i am simply not having seen this particular set of evnts..what i have seen is, "I think you guys ought to reconsider ..."

"ok. We will contact the muni engineer"/ City Attorney..:) he comes out to the job looks around sees the problem and ...somehow it is on you..:) Honest Injun.

Perry_3

Yes

Since I have spent a lot of years working for utilities (public and municipal); and of course have been a customer even when not working for a utility (there was about a decade window where I was out of the plants). Due to where power plants are... often you can work at one utiltity and get your electricty at home from another (even and the power plant that I work at gets its normal electricy for its building services from another utility).

I have seen this happen. I have even filed a complaint about one utility at the PSC level once - and watched the fallout. Of course my best story - the embezlement one - is the most recent. The embezlers were outright fired (and criminally prosecuted); but the shakeup did not end there by a long shot.

On the other hand; I do concede that what is really going to happen is dependent on how well the state public service commission works.

I believe I am fortunate to live in Wisconsin in that regards. The PSC has I believe a fairly unique understanding. Customers must be protected - and the utilites are really there to serve the customer...., and the long term cheapest power for the customer is from power companies that are profitable and have good commercial credit ratings (the cost of borrowing is low - and if a company is making a good profit it has money needed for proper long term maintenance).

It has really worked well.

If you read my response to the Nuclear in Canada thread... Wisconsin is the only state in the US to have called in the utilites that had started to build another nuclear plant - and when the "change the rules midstream" started and offered that while the plant looked prudent when they started, that the PSC was not sure about it now. If the Utilities agreed that the plant was not needed - especially given that cost were being spun out of control by actions at the federal level - that they could stop all work and cancle all contracts now and the PSC would allow recovery of all cost expended to date.

It probably goes on record as the fastest deal ever done between the Wisconsin PSC and the utilities. It protected both the utilites (and the investors backing the utility) as they were allowed to recover the money spent - and protected the ratepayers by not imposing an extra billion in cost that would have occured above the original projected cost of the plant.

The foudations at the site that were being poored were just buried. I think the site is now a golf course.

Perry

Uni R_2

Missing or unknown system feature...

Do you somehow get the feeling that this is all because their system was either never designed to handle this happening or nobody there knows how to read the manual - so now they are trying to use the Accounts Receivable features to try and balance it all off using their A/R policy guidelines?

Maybe try asking them if this is the case?

If it is, ask to read the system documentation (who knows, maybe it can already do it, but nobody is very well versed at reading technical guides). If they don't have it, won't provide it or the system can't do it, ask them if they'd like you to follow it up with the vendor who supplied the system because they obviously have a system issue? At some point in this process, hopefully they'll realize that this is what THEY should be doing.

If they can't help you in that direction, then demand a brand new meter. Then, at least according to the sketchy Utility company logic, the customer should basically get refunded everything they have ever paid! Even the extra $ for the original meter swap error. LOL

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

Possibly resolved!

Spoke with the water co pres & he said they will kill the bill. He also apologized for the 10-day termination notice, which was not supposed to be used during any billing dispute. An admitted communication SNAFU, so credit goes to him for being a straight-shooter and admitting the mistake. So, no PUC involvement - yet & that suits the customers to a T.

90% of the water co employees we've ever dealt with are 110% orientated to customer service and had they been in charge, this issue would have been resolved two months ago!

I'm hoping this promised resolution gets enacted so that we can return to normal - whatever that is(G).

scott w.

Water companies are usually the least sophisticated of any public utility. Water companies can't balance anything but cash.

I think this whole complaint started because the man who installed the new meter didn't fill out his paperwork properly. Then every one else just shirked thier duty. That meter guy should be soundly poked with a sharp stick. LOL

Kudos to the president for resolving this. I am sure of red faces amongst the lower minions.

Weezbo

Ok... so maybe you got lucky ...This Time*~/:)

buh lets do the math:)..how many hours of how many days have you burned to get them to resolve an 800 dollar oversight?

ok i Know you are thinking that i should admitt that what i said was wrong because the first go around it may be an honest mistake...buh the insistance that indeed i have no optomistic belife that you or anyone else would make any dent on a muni "mistake"....and honestly while i should possibly change my view i am somehow stuck on the idea that it is something of a fluke or exception to prove the rule.

i can change if i have too,i guess...:)

jackchips_2

Contrary

to Weezbo's comments, if you had stopped who knows what would have happened.

My take is, as long as you saw light in that tunnel you hoped for the end and it worked out.

No train for Dave.

Well done.

Jack

Rich W

In this,the winter of our discount tent, I must agree.