Which floor plates?

Gene Davis_2

If you are familiar with both the McDuffco "UltraFin" plates and the Uponor "JoistTrac" plates, please compare the performance.

The Uponor package of plates for my 3000 sf of woodframe floor area to be heated is considerably more expensive than if I use UltraFin.

kevin coppinger_4

really two...

different systems...if you do ultrafin you are running 180F water through the tubing....if you do the joist trac you are using cooler water say, 125F...you could argue that the system by wirsbo will be more efficient....as to the cost of the plates if you hold the two side by side...it would be clear that the joist trac is a much thicker plate and thereby will add to the thermal mass of the floor...kpc

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Gene Davis_2

I understand the difference in the two products, and I can easily understand the basis of the price difference, which clearly correlates to the quantity of aluminum in each.

But the cost differential is too much to ignore. For a 3000 sf underfloor job, there may be a cost savings of close to $5000 to go with the UltraFin product.

Ed_26

plates

You missed kpc's point. You can pay the initial upfront cost of the plates (once) or pay the increased fuel costs of thermofin forever.
- plates = lower temps = less energy $ (over system life)
- fins = higher temps = more energy $ (over system life)

Weezbo

Gene , a couple years ago i saw the Ultra fin

on Reed Construction an e newsletter...i wonderd about the use of the fin plates as far as comfort .

the temp control stradgies and what might be realistically expected of the convector plates..

Hot Rod brought up some IR photos he had of a test done with the thick plates..the distribution of btus sure looked convincing. since then he has posted some pics with the Ultra Fin. HR does real clean work and is always tinkering with Hydronic questions of every and any nature looking to find the simplest and best practices....

if you search on the top of the page under the topic i think you might find the pics and the replies...well, i gotta run. Habby New Years *~/:)

hr

first off

what are your room by room heatloads? This may dictate the choice of product.

It is possible to mix the two products also. I installed a UF job last winter, ran low supply temperatures (150F), via a Knight mod con, and blended some transfer plates at the outside walls and the high load, tall,glass ended great room.

In fact the IR pics I showed was that job under power.

The transfer plates move most of the energy by conduction, by far the more powerful "driver". But my pics show the UF does in fact work and work well according to the IR pics of the floor temperature spread.

With either product I find the PAP tube is a better choice. Less movement and perhaps a better tube to transfer heat with that aluminum layer.

I believe Radiant Engineering has a new plate design in the works for the PAP tube with the larger od's.

hot rod

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Ted_5

H.A. Side Track

If you are looking to lower your material cost and not give up performance, then look at Hydronic Alternative's Side Track plates. www.hydronicalternatives.com The plates have a little different design and are less money then Upinor.
I still don't think 150F is low enough water temp. If you use good plates, in most cases you could get by with 130F or less. That adds up to fuel saved over time.
Although, it's not the supply temp that effects the efficiency of a condensing boiler, it is the return water. Is any of the system in concrete, if so you would have to mix that down to a lower temp. If you have enough of the lower temp return water going back to the boiler then that would help on boiler efficiency. Do you have any concreted areas?

Ted

Gene Davis_2

Yes, there is a basement slab of 2200 sf.

Chris_82

The wirsbro plates are fast to install, the thing that really bugged me was when the ultra fins came out...the install video that came with them was totally bogus, they had prepared everything, layout, holes, tools, and so on, installing that tubing just isn’t fast no matter what you do! And to pretend as they do that they have a better way to anyone that is in this business, is nothing short of a lie. This type of deceptive marketing and the cheep quality was such a big turn off that I never looked back and don't use them! The big point isn't a battle which is the best, it's just after you install a few staple up systems you discover the "fin" system just doesn’t work as well and the high REQUIRED temp to get the thing to work makes those fins sound like a thousand gerbils and mice are running around, even if and you should always properly insulate the joist spaces with at least 8 inches of quality insulation. You get what you pay for and in this case feel free to use the fins, just not in my house! They entered this market with one thing in mind, beat the other guys price and the hell with quality…

Chris_82

Hot Rod...

Just a fine point that we found does matter...the plates, regardless of manufacturer do heat by conduction...the fins heat by convection/advection...if insulation gets pushed up tight to the fins you suffer a large loss, it's one of the reasons the fins require an air space, actually they all reccomend an air space, but with the fins its a much bigger deal...and I can't get past the expansion/contraction noise they make. And yes I agree constant circulation does help...but at our present electric rate it is running about 28.00 dollars to run just one 007 for a heating season, and we go back to the "comfort versus savings" discussion.

ALH_4

plates

Thermofin extruded plates transfer heat by conduction. Conduction will let you use lower fluid temperatures and avoid mixing valves as well as optimize the efficiency of a modulating condensing boiler. You can fun extruded plates at the same temperature as your slab.

Ultra Fin takes warmer temperatures than extruded plates. Coupling higher temperature emitters with a slab necessitates the use of additional equipment in the mechanical room and lowering your combustion efficiency.

With extruded plates, you can heat your home at design conditions with 100F water in many cases. That is well within condensing range. It's hard to argue with that.

If you do use Thermofin or Joist Trak, use pneumatic tools to install the fin and tube. Danair makes a nice palm hammer that makes tube installation far easier. Use a 16-ga stapler like the Hitachi N5008 or a pneumatic roofing nailer with 3/4" nails.

Rudnae

If I may disagree...

> The wirsbro plates are fast to install, the thing

> that really bugged me was when the ultra fins

> came out...the install video that came with them

> was totally bogus, they had prepared everything,

> layout, holes, tools, and so on, installing that

> tubing just isn’t fast no matter what you do! And

> to pretend as they do that they have a better way

> to anyone that is in this business, is nothing

> short of a lie. This type of deceptive marketing

> and the cheep quality was such a big turn off

> that I never looked back and don't use them!

> The big point isn't a battle which is the best,

> it's just after you install a few staple up

> systems you discover the "fin" system just

> doesn’t work as well and the high REQUIRED temp

> to get the thing to work makes those fins sound

> like a thousand gerbils and mice are running

> around, even if and you should always properly

> insulate the joist spaces with at least 8 inches

> of quality insulation. You get what you pay for

> and in this case feel free to use the fins, just

> not in my house! They entered this market with

> one thing in mind, beat the other guys price and

> the hell with quality…