Homart boiler info

bob_46

I am suprised that none of you super safety worry warts haven't commented on the V80 gas valve with the manual operator.

SusanC

Homart 600 boiler info

Am on a wild goose chase for the installation specs for an old Homart 600 gas steam heating boiler to see the near-boiler piping. It's a Homart 600 Model 867, and I'm sure it's so old no one has specs. The closest I found on the web (everywhere) was in the Library section of this site, which has a pdf document on How to Install Homart Hot-Water and Steam Heating Systems. This, of course, is not specific to Homart 600, Model 867. Do any of you keep a library of old specs. or have any ideas on where I might find this info? Any help would be much appreciated.

bob young

867 steam homart

the 867 came with a steam drum.that makes one helluva header.

Steamhead (in transit)

Dunkirk

made many of those old Sears boilers. Can you post a pic so we might get an idea of what it might be similar to?

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SusanC

Homart boiler pictures

Making these pictures was more of a feat than my attempts to fully understand my steam heating system - new to digital photography!

Before attaching: I know (1) piping of equalizer to drum and from shortly after the wet returns meet and then on to the boiler connector is copper (will have this changed to black iron)(2) Hartford loop is high and of course currently copper(was already lowered once - it's a main reason why I would like boiler specs before it gets lowered again in case crown sheet is high) (3)bucket is plastic but I'm careful.

My major problem is low water cut-off doubtless due to partially clogged wet returns and I would think also to the too high Hartford Loop. I am sending more pictures than you want inclucing some of piping. In feeling temp. of return pipes I would say there's some clogging from the T where the 2 wet returns meet; also at such a T could the condensate tend to sort of go back and forth a bit horizontally? I realize this is a bit of a strange question from the gravity standpoint.

Now to try to attach; it make take more than 1 try

SusanC

Homart boiler pictures

Making these pictures was more of a feat than my attempts to fully understand my steam heating system - new to digital photography!

Before attaching: I know (1) piping of equalizer to drum and from shortly after the wet returns meet and then on to the boiler connector is copper (will have this changed to black iron)(2) Hartford loop is high and of course currently copper(was already lowered once - it's a main reason why I would like boiler specs before it gets lowered again in case crown sheet is high) (3)bucket is plastic but I'm careful.

My major problem is low water cut-off doubtless due to partially clogged wet returns and I would think also to the too high Hartford Loop. I am sending more pictures than you want including some of piping. In feeling temp. of return pipes I would say there's some clogging from the T where the 2 wet returns meet; also at such a T could the condensate tend to sort of go back and forth a bit horizontally? I realize this is a bit of a strange question from the gravity standpoint.

Now to try to attach; it make take more than 1 try. I think I did it (and I did compress them)

EBEBRATT-Ed

Could you measure from the floor to the center of the bottom gage glass connection---where the low water cut off is connected? Also from the floor to the bottom of the Hartford loop connection which is that short horizontal piece of copper pipe connecting the return line to the boiler? Then post measurements.

ED

SusanC

Measurements

Hope these are what you are requesting and bearing in mind that nothing is completely level, e.g. floor, in this house:
Floor to the bottom of the 1/2 inch pipe connecting low water cut-off to glass gauge: 24 1/2 inches; water cuts off in gauge at about 26 1/2 inches from floor, i.e. about 1/2 inch from bottom of visible glass, so I guess a little bit above 26 1/2 inches from floor is bottom of operating level?

From bottom of H.L., and measuring from floor to bottom of the 1 1/2 inch pipe is 3 1/4 inches from floor.

Steamhead (in transit)

I think I've seen one of those boilers

and if memory serves, the sight glass was originally inside the front portion of the boiler's jacket. Can you take off the front panel and post a pic of the insides? I bet the piping to that LWCO was extended from inside the jacket, and it looks like it's steel where it should be brass.

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SusanC

Hope these are the desired pictures

Attaching 2 pictures. Did you see all 5 I attached yesterday? The space for filming is a bit cramped in the basement so the angles will be a bit weird.

By the way, I was previously, and am, aware that the pigtail is exactly wrong and may be the reason why my pressuretrol does not cut off until 2.5 psi although set at 1, so a differential of 1.5; will have that changed.

Do you think that eventually we will know how low the Hartford Loop can be? I'd like to get it 2 inches below the safe operating level but above the crown sheet as recommended. Once again, I greatly appreciate your assistance.

SusanC

Significance of measurements

> Could you measure from the floor to the center of

> the bottom gage glass connection---where the low

> water cut off is connected? Also from the floor

> to the bottom of the Hartford loop connection

> which is that short horizontal piece of copper

> pipe connecting the return line to the boiler?

> Then post measurements.

>

> ED

SusanC

Significance of measurements

Posted the measurements. What do these tell you?

bob young

THINK BURNHAM

they tell me you should consider installing a new unit. replace the wet return with l type copper and you won't even need a hartford loop. [ not that i recommend eliminating it. ] don't sink a nickel into that boiler as it is also very poorly rated . frame the picture. I LOVE STEAM DRUMS.

Steamhead (in transit)

I see steel nipples

going thru the boiler jacket. Have them replaced with brass- if the steel ones plug up, the LWCO might not see a falling water level. If the level goes down and the LWCO doesn't respond, the boiler could crack.

The Hartford Loop does look high, but is that causing the system to bang? If not, I'd leave it for now, and rework it when the time comes to replace the boiler. Hopefully by then, Burnham will have certified its new Mega-Steam boiler with a gas burner, or someone else will have come out with a 3-pass steamer that can burn gas or oil. This would give you maximum fuel flexibility.

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SusanC

Further Loop question

I'm not getting water hammer from the Hartford Loop. It has been suggested that its height is slowing the return of condensate, thereby contributing to or causing the low water cut-off problem. I realize clogged returns are likely involved in the low water cut-off problem but can a too high Hartford Loop also contribute? The Loop was even higher in the past but several years ago, shortly after I bought the house, it was lowered some. Supposedly steam knowledgeable people want to lower it more (Note that I said supposedly steam knowledgeable). Would it be unsafe to lower this loop, e.g. crown sheet location? Or otherwise could it make a situation worse? In other words, what would be the downside of lowering it? Could there be an up side?

EBEBRATT-Ed

Well the location of the Hartford loop is important. A couple of inches below the center of the gage glass is ok. Yours seems to be about right. Looking at the picture was making me think it was piped wrong.

Steamhead (in transit)

Ideally

> I'm not getting water hammer from the Hartford

> Loop. It has been suggested that its height is

> slowing the return of condensate, thereby

> contributing to or causing the low water cut-off

> problem. I realize clogged returns are likely

> involved in the low water cut-off problem but can

> a too high Hartford Loop also contribute? The

> Loop was even higher in the past but several

> years ago, shortly after I bought the house, it

> was lowered some. Supposedly steam knowledgeable

> people want to lower it more (Note that I said

> supposedly steam knowledgeable). Would it be

> unsafe to lower this loop, e.g. crown sheet

> location? Or otherwise could it make a situation

> worse? In other words, what would be the

> downside of lowering it? Could there be an up

> side?



it should probably be lower. But there are plenty of Loops piped like yours out there, working fine. The Loop position wouldn't affect returning condensate- the returns are a much more likely suspect.

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Steamhead (in transit)

Ideally

it should probably be lower. But there are plenty of Loops piped like yours out there, working fine. The Loop position wouldn't affect returning condensate- the returns are a much more likely suspect.

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bob young

normal waterline

THE normal water line on that boiler should be 32" or 33" putting the top of hartford loop tee at 30 or 31 inches max. off finished floor. the boiler i am comparing it with looks pretty much identical only variation i notice additional tapping at 27.5 " above bottom gauge tapping bringing low-water cut-off point to 30 " love the steam drum.

SusanC

Reply to Steamhead and Bob Young

Measurements are as follows - sound very close to Bob Young's. Please note, I measure at bottom of pipes and then usually state pipe diameter; do people prefer mid-pipe measurements?

Bottom of Hartford Loop nipple (horizontal section at top of Loop; 1 1/2'' pipe dia.): approx 28 1/4'' from floor - so top of pipe approx. 29 3/4''

Bottom of visible glass gauge: approx. 26'' from floor; mid glass approx. 30'' from floor. Water cuts off approx. 26 3/4'' from floor so approx. 3/4'' from bottom of glass.

I see in your message (Bob Young), when you are speaking of the "normal" water line, you are speaking of mid operating range, not lowest safe operating point. My lowest operating water line is a fraction above 26 3/4'' from the floor; the bottom of my H.L. nipple is approx. 1 1/2'' higher than that. Anyone, can this contribute to any problems (other than hammer)?

Barring emergencies, I plan on having work done on the system in early Spring, when it can still be run but is not so crucial as mid-Winter. One of the first things that I will have done will be to clean or replace wet returns. Shouldn't the H.L. and nearby piping or at least the equalizer be changed from copper to black iron? If so, that would mean at least some re-piping of the H.L. Should it go back exactly at its current level or a bit lower? Or is copper piping in this area not so important? At the current H.L. level or slightly lower, is there a potential for not realizing where the crown sheet is and thereby getting the H.L. lower than the crown sheet and thus unsafe? Sorry to keep hammering at this question; thankfully for me (but not you) the hammering is me, not the system.

ps: Bob Young, since you love the steel drum and I'm sort of attached to it too, why do you want me to replace the boiler?

bob young

HAMMER & DRUMS

the top of tee on hartford loop must be below water line. or water hammer time. normal water line should be approx. 3/4 mark on glass. safe level & cut-off point will be lower . if water line falls to cut-off point and condensate returns ---hammertime. remedy : keep waterline at normal level or lower hartford connection to below cut-off point. adding a feeder could solve problem or cause nightmares. i think you might have sluggish returns. add a can of squick. might help. you can use the STEAM DRUM on your new burnham boiler or fabricate a new one out of six inch black pipe.

Bob_91

I have the Installation Book

I'm just a lurker on these boards, but I have this boiler installed as a gravity hot water system. Hope this pic helps.

Steamhead (in transit)

Does it say

how high the Hartford Loop should be off the floor, or the height of the "water line" shown?

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Bob_91

It shows...

An illustration with 30.5" from floor to water line. I don't see any mention about Hartford Loop except that in the picture I posted of "typical piping layout for steam system"

Steamhead (in transit)

That would put the Hartford Loop

at 28.5 inches from the floor to the center of the pipe. Susan, it looks like your Hartford Loop is within 1/4-inch of where the diagram says it should be.

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Bob_91

A few more pics...

SusanC

brochure, etc.

Bob, terrific! Thanks so much for attaching those pictures. Take good care of that brochure!

You Wall responders are wonderful; wouldn't at least some of you consider moving to NJ?

DanHolohan

Bob,

would you be able to scan that booklet as a PDF so that I can add it to the Library?

SusanC

SusanC

center of close nipple

Tried to post this but having trouble doing so - may have to put it in New Message on this Topic - hope it's not appearing somewhere multiple times.

Reply:
Yes, actually center of pipe is about 29" from floor (bottom was 28 1/4"), or a hair higher for both measurements depending on floor and how well I get my eye opposite measuring point, so center of pipe would be 1/2" to max. 3/4" higher than in diagram. Presumably close enough?

I imagine at least the near-Loop piping will have to be broken/cut to put in valves to flush various portions of the system, which would allow even that small correction if advisable. Also the whole equalizer as well as Loop and near-Loop piping are copper. If it is important enough that the above-water portion of the equalizer is black iron, that would require re-piping even if re-piping were not necessary for flushing purposes. Is the copper important enough to require re-piping?

In an attempt to more closely locate probable clogs in my pipes, boiler, etc., starting another message on pipe temperature observations in this topic - I'm so far indented in this thread now my messages are beginning to look as narrow as a vertical 1 1/2" pipe.- I really appreciate all the assistance Wall participants have been rendering

SusanC

Pipe temperature observations

Have made some pipe temperature observations in an attempt to further determine what might be participating to the low water cut-off problem in addition to clogged returns or to further locate areas of greatest clogs prior to the actual work on the system.

The following are what I’ve noticed when burner has not run long enough to reach low water cut-off. First the physical layout (Note: I approach the H.L. from the return side, so ascending is the part further away from boiler; descending is the part closer to boiler.):

Returns drop vertically on 2 sides of basement, then go horizontally (starting approx 18” from floor) a long distance to meet at approx. 16” above floor at a T; from there a short vertical (approx. 12.5”) goes to a horizontal (approx 4” above floor) running about 15” to the bottom of the ascending leg of the Hartford Loop. At the bottom of the descending leg of the H.L., a short horizontal (12.5”) runs to a 4” pipe which runs approx 4” to boiler. Attaching 2 pictures showing this piping. The left long horizontal going along wall to T is about 60”; the right goes along two sides of the basement wall, with the part after the vertical drop being about 111” long to the corner where it turns 90 degrees and runs about 44” to the T. Much of the right horizontal is 16.5” above the floor; it has a slightly wrong slant after it goes around corner and heads for the T (e.g. 15.5” above floor), then meeting the T at about 16”, with , as noted above, a slight back.(wrong) tilt toward corner. (floor is a bit uneven so checked slant with level).

Observations on warm weather cycle not reaching low water cut-off. I could do a blow-by-blow description, but patience with my long messages might wear thin (may have already) so will mention only some observations.

(1) Once the left (therefore shorter) long horizontal return gets warmish, condensate appears, at least to some degree, to preferentially go past the T into the right horizontal; some goes down the vertical pipe like it should, but the part of the right horizontal closest to the T gets a bit warmer sooner than the short vertical from the T; this is not the condensate from the long right horizontal because the mid part of that is cooler than the part near the T. Is 111’’, a corner and then 44” too long for a horizontal return or is it likely that clogging in that long return and/or the slightly wrong slant, and maybe some clogging in the vertical from the T are responsible for the slow return on that side and the apparent preference of the condensate from the left side to enter that horizontal a bit more and/or sooner than the vertical T? Also, would it be better to have the long horizontal returns meet in a sort of Y than a T to enhance the gravity effect?

(2) At the boiler at the beginning of the heating cycle, heat extends up descending leg of H.L. to about waterline, then interestingly as heat cycle continues that portion of the H.L. cools down again so that only about 2”, ultimately 4-5 “ is warm. The 4” pipe from boiler and its proximal short horizontal are hot. Should a firing burner heat up that much of the pipe or is some water backing out? Was perhaps cold condensate from the previous heat cycle (quite a while ago due to warm weather) in the H.L. and it then flowed back toward boiler re-cooling most of H.L.?
(Later Note: more than 1 hr. after heating cycle stopped: the descending H.L. is warm (not hot) as far as waterline so I guess the warmth at the beginning of the cycle was from that.)

(3) Once the burner stops firing and the boiler stops generating steam, water returns in the glass up to the last 1” between 5-10 mins. The very last portion, e.g. ¼ “ or so, of the remaining inch takes a very long time. (Have drawn line on glass for observational purposes.)

This should end my lengthy descriptions for awhile. Whoever reads this, thank you for your patience.

Steamhead (in transit)

I think you've proven

that your returns need replacing. Let us know how well they do when that has been done.

The crossover of some heat into the long return from the shorter one is probably conduction, rather than backwards flow. The length of that return should not be a problem. It should be pitched toward the drain (faucet with hose attachment) so it can be drained and flushed if needed.

Bob- good eye. Many of us have not seen enough of that type of valve to recognize it from a pic as opposed to being there. Susan, that would be another thing to have replaced if you plan to keep that boiler for a while.

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SusanC

Thanks and valve+ question

Once again thanks very much! Are you sure you don't want to move to NJ?

I believe I'm going to have to have several drains put in to flush system, e.g. even closer to boiler; I would think that will require surgery in the H.L. area. If that is the case, that's why I'm wondering if the H.L. or at least the above-water equalizer section running into it should be changed from copper to black iron.

So far I plan on keeping the boiler; it's heating pretty well and, when I read about the problems of replacing a boiler in an old system, my hair stands on end - it's not the expense; it's the hair aspect. Could you describe that valve a little so I know which one it is? My eye and mind haven't moved yet from water in its various forms to gas (of non-water type).

Dave_4

Sears 867

Susan,

We have the same model - and live in NJ! It's worked well in our 17 years in the house. Ours is beige in color, though.

But we are thinking of replacing it because every plumber who's been in our basement explains how inefficient it is. Sorry to trouble you, but what do you mean by "when I read about the problems of replacing a boiler in an old system, my hair stands on end"?

Thanks,
Don

PS: I'll look to see whether we have a sticker or some other directions attached to the boiler that might help you.

PPS: Did you see this document I found elsewhere on this Web site? It may have your answer: http://www.heatinghelp.com/pdfs/362.pdf

SusanC

Hi Don,

Thanks. Yes, I have the document you mentioned; actually it was my quest for Homart boiler specs. which prompted a possessor of the document to let "The Wall" know he had it, which resulted in the document residing in the Library. My 600 Model 867 may be a slightly different 867 Model (6147, rather than those listed in the document), but it is very similar to the 6101. What model is yours according to the nameplate?

Regarding on-end hair and steam heat in general (but specifically mine) my hair is much less reactive now because a king among steamheat professionals is coming here for a consultation.

Don_188

right model, wrong type

Sorry, Susan, but our 867 is a hot water boiler, number 7246. But it's nice seeing other relics (older than me) still working. We just had the first of four plumbers (including PSE&G) parade in today for estimates to replace it. Everyone says it runs at about 50-55 percent efficiency, so I guess we'll take the plunge. You want the old one for parts? (kidding) Good luck with yours! Don

Dave_4

Sears Homart 600 hammering noise

Hi,

Maybe someone can help me. We have a log cabin built in 1964 and it has a Sears Homart 600 Automatic Heating Lifeclad Ceramic Coated heater, model 867.63991 with HQ blower. The heater looks pretty old just by the design/style of it. It has always been operating fine, but it started making a weird noise early this morning. It makes an occasional "hammering" noise when it's blowing air. It sounds pretty much like a woodpecker. As a matter of fact I thought we had a woodpecker attacking our logs. When I opened up the front I discovered the filter was very dirty and had moved out of position and was up against the side of what looks like the blower assembly. (But not on the side that has the belt.) It actually had a round hole worn through it from something. I replaced the filter with a clean one and so far it has not made the noise again. Does anyone know anything about this model? How old is it? What is its energy efficiency rating? Are parts still available if needed? etc. Thanks for any and all help.

Deidre Vail