Munchkin moan on start up

[Deleted User]

Is THAT a better description of the noise?

As I remember, it was a minor fuel adjustment to get rid of it. Richen the burn IMMSMC...

ME

GW

anyone know how to mend?

We did a nice job for a nice lady two years ago. The lady has been very patient; still is. Had the rep out once; did some tweaking. The thing will not make a moan when I or anyone alse is there, but this lady has two feet on the ground. Has anyone ever dealt with this issue? It's a NG with a concentric, very close piping (90 up, 90 out, maybe 3 or 4 feet inbetween), we've checked everything (except the gasket on the combustion chamber detail!)

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

LarryC

Time of day issue

Could it be a time of day issue? Can or will the lady make an event log as to when this moaning occurs?

GW

I can ask

I thought it might be some LP being slipped into the mains but kind of discounted that idea; it seems to happen in mild weather as well.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Mark Hunt

Gary


Does this boiler have the 925 board?

Mark H

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

GW

yes

it does. I believe we have it set to crank to high fire right away (forgot the techno word for this!) because we have an AHU and a SSU WH

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Rich W

This one had the same symptoms. It was installed in Nov of 03.Here's how it ended.

Mark Hunt

Shot you an e-mail


Gotta' step out for a bit.

Maybe we can fix this when I get back.

Mark H

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Rich W

goofy photo phile

Ok try this one.

Mark Hunt

I think


Gary is talking about more of a harmonic than the noise that issue produces.

Mark H

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

GW

left the office

I'm at home now. I did see the email come in as I was leaving; will give it my fullest attention in the morning!

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

GW

don't think

it's an inducer blower; my patient lady would be less patient.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Ted_9

Wondering too

Was this just on a call for domestic? High fire etc.??

Massachusetts

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

R. Swatton

Harmonic Humm

Could be more than .5 drop wc from static to hi fire.

Also I have found that if accumulated piping from gas meter is less than 20'.


Improper size of gas piping.

e mail me and I will give you some suggestions.

Rich




Authorized Heat Tranfer Products Sevice Agent

GW

please

gary@wilsonph.com

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

GW

not sure but

both systems require high fire. the boiler doesn't know the difference. There is no vision 1 control

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

GW

yes i guess

a low pitched fog horn. she said dhe heard it out in the street while walking her dog, and she hears it on the second floor. I guess the sound really travels.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Brian_18

Let us know the outcome

Please let us know the outcome. I have a Peerless Pinnacle that has exhibited this syndrome for two years. I set up the combustion spot-on to spec, and every once in a while it still decides to Fog Horn. I've also set it up to the lean side, and then to the rich side, and same result. I've resigned myself to living with it, but really would like to solve the issue. I really like the boiler, and have absolutely no other issues with it.

hr

I have had the same noise

on Munchkins, Knights, and one Ultra. All LP versions and every one was solved with and adjustment, as ME noted.

Sometimes you will get a point or so out of the factory "ideal" range to rid the unit of the noise.

But the Weil factory tech told me the noise trumps the emission number, keep adjusting! The Weil could be heard moaning at the neighbors house!

That being said, tiny 1/4 turn or less adjustments are ususlly all that is needed. On one ocassion it took a full turn and a quarter to get the moan out.

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Andy Byrnes

I have had similar problems with boilers using the same type of burner/heat exchanger in the UK. Usualy as some one has already suggested adjusting the gas air ratio has sorted the problem put but on some occasions it didn't.

I have found debris and sludge in the heat exchanger creating hot spots and poor circulation.When burner on max noise is evident but when modulating down the noise disappears.

I have also had to adjusted the balance of a system to create a higher or some times lower differential between the flow and return temps.

On one occasion again I could not trace the noise as it never did it while I was present. I changed most of the componants within the boiler ( it was under warranty ) and eventually it turned out to be the gas valve. I couldn't understand it as the CO2 readings were spot on.

Hope these may help you please let us know the final out come.

Andy B (UK)

Rich W

No noise

It didn't make any noise on this day. The wheel was jammed. It never made the noise while we were at the house. We have had others where we tweaked the valve and that stopped the complaints. We replaced the inducer 2 months ago and all is quiet. It looks like the face of the wheel was loose in a few spots- causing the vibration (and noise) that eventually fractured the face off.

Just WAG'n here. Without watching, listening and monitoring 24/7, who can say absolutely and in every case why the noise happens. Even when everything is "perfect".

Come to think of it, that's why I love this job

Kevin G_2

Munchkin moaning

Has anyone checked the offset on these boilers that are making noise. Run the boiler in service mode at low fire right after ignition to get it to make the noise.
Everyone says they are adjusting but not what they are adjusting. I will assume it is the throttle screw. this will not change the fuel mixture where you need it. you need to check the offset in low fire if you want some of these noises to go away.
Kevin G

WaterHeaterGuy

BINGO

Offset adjustment is probably where you will need to be.

-.02" W.C. on the outlet side of the valve in LOW fire. Never make an offset adjustment anywhere but on low fire.

(FYI - To fix the unit into a low fire, press S3 & S4 buttons on the digital display for 3 seconds. You will see an "SER" alternating to a value. The value is the blower speed (X10) in RPM. Press S1 to slow down / S2 to speed up.

Tap S1 & S2 together to exit service mode... otherwise it will kick you out after 10 minutes)

Kevin G_2

Be careful your offsets may be different for different boilers.
-.01 to -.02 for T-50,T-80,80M,140M,199M
+.10 to +.15 for 399M with older Dungs valve
-.01 to -.02 for 399M with New lighted gas valve

GW

how to adjust

This is a new one on me; I'm cool with the high fire adjust, but how do I do low fire offset? I have a cute little Testo digital manometer, just tll me where to plug and and where to screw

How come you know so much about Munchkins?

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Mark Hunt

Gary


Call HTP before you do this.

Chuck or John can walk you through it over the phone.

I've adjusted a few offsets as well. HTP deliberately leaves that info out of the instructions.

Mark H

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Chris_82

Check the fan before you do anything else! And in all fairness I have seen these do this regardless, change the vent length, push the case a little, and yes sometimes it is the gas supply/ But this noise is the noise they make just before the fan usually jams, the whole impeller cover is vibrating it self to death and should be a manditory check! Because the fan will continue to run... if it dosent jam...at an unknown effecincy and co output!

Chris_82

This makes a noise while it is failing, don't try and steer others away from this problem! All the fans should be inspected, no exceptions! This is a safety issue!

GW

fan check

I don't get it; do i simply inspect the inducer as it does its thing?

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Rich W

Chris

I agree with you. It doesn't take long to open the blower assembly and check for a loose or vibrating wheel. The other things need to be verified as well.

Kevin G_2

I find that the digitals do not read in small enough increments. You need to read in increments of .01 to set the boilers correctly. The Dyers gauge from Grainger works best with 0 in the center only reads to about .25 either way positive or negative.

I know so much because I work for Advanced Hydronics Sales and Rep. Heat Transfer in our sales area. But it's not all that much. I hate being called John S. Jr. by my boss.

You could most likely speak to Chuck at the factory for adjustment information. But you must be a contractor with the proper training to do this. I have trained many of the local installers that are capable of doing this so there are able to service the units they install better.


Kevin G

Chris_82

No, you have to take it apart.

Unfortunately you have to take it apart, with some shoort torx bits, anyone know what size? Or take the whole unit apart, starting with the gas valve. What is particularly annoying is the fact that the HTP clowns want the whole unit back in order to receive a core credit...which is an oppressive and irresponsible act on their behalf. Nothing like spending a few hours troubleshooting a munckin only to finally find the fan has ripped itself apart, take it to the supply house in pieces, and then be told you need the other half of the fan housing or feel free to cough up 500 bucks. The real issue is with the units in the field that have failed and are still running with the small pieces of fan jammed in the plenum! If you notice the htp reps all downplay or skirt this issue, But what about the large number of exsisting units out there that they seem to ignore?

Chris_82

Let me get this straight...

"But you must be a contractor with the proper training to do this."

Are you saying you have to have recived the "free" factory training to recive phone support on this issue?

Kevin G_2

I'm saying there are parts of this boiler that should not be touched by homeowners who could possibly damage the units or cause something worse. I would also recommend contacting your local sales rep. They would be able to help getting you this information.
As far as returning the whole fan of course it has to go back. The company they buy them from requires them back to get credit for the unit. They also require what all my other Warranty forms require. Homeowners info addr. date of install date of failure and what the failure was. Also contractors info.
Kevin G

Chris_82

Are u shure Kevin?

Perhaps that's why Staci reynolds at HTP is holding up core refunds, they forgot to send the ? form about the homeowner, And I say shame on you for making HTP's core problem our problem. Why is a third party responsible, "the alleged fan manufacturer" now our problem. This is one of the oldest pass the buck arguments that has been going around, I suspect before you were born, no disrespect here, but either they stand behind their product or they don't. I can tell you from personal experience...dealing with Dave Martin that they have a dismal opinion of most plumbers and installers, they run a gauntlet in hopes of making warrenty work profitable for them, and they operate in a mannar to avoid a nationwide recall of a defective product.

[Deleted User]

Who the heck is Dave Martin???

And why are you on such a personal vendetta against this company???

(EDIT) More importantly, who the heck are you, and waht are your qualifications/experience.

You may be college educated, and well written, but you've made numerous statements here that bring question to your knowledge base...

ME

Chris_82

and what is the ph of tomoto juice?

DanHolohan

4.1

Kevin G_2

You should contact the sales rep for your area. contact the supplier you have been buying your munchkin boilers through. All manufacturers have a warranty process if you find problems with this then I'm sorry for you. follow there instructions and things get done fight with them and don't follow there instructions and things don't get done.
Your choice

Kevin G