warmboard

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have the framing crew on board with a Warmboard i nstallation. I've done 4 now and I always work along with the framers for at least a day. (I also buy beer at days end, for them)

It is tougher to saw and sprays aluminun chips, so good safety glasses are a must, for the framers. It does "use up" theis circular saw bladed quicker, carbide tooth blades are a must.

It is fairly heavy stuff. Most of the help I provided was to carry the sheets. It really is a two man job at 100 lbs. plus per sheet.

It takes a powerful nail gun to drive through the sheets. I didn't have luck with a screw gun, the screws would twist off before the would sink in.

I built some more useful router templetes than the factory ones. If you have floor registers for the HVAC they will fall right on the first groove. I built a special register templete.

I ended up with a dual router set up. I used my 1/2 hp with a good carbite tip router blade to cut the aluminum. Then the 2 hp to hog all the wood with one cut. I went through less router resharpend that way and the larger routers use a bigger diameter shaft blade so you can really hog out the wood quickly. A powerful router is a must or you will have to make 3 passes.

A glue stick is also handy. I bought one and left it with the framers as a thank you.

All this being said i feel WB is the best performer out there. The floor installers love the nailing surface.

I waited till after sheetrock for my tube install. I built a special groove cleaner from a 5/8 cleaning brush attached to a shop vac.

On a custom home early tube installation will take a beating. Protection may or may not work. Cardboard s a real hassle to walk over for months. Especially if it gets wet. Plan on a cheap thin paneling for throw away protection. And add all those costs into the bid!

hot rod

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Bob Bona_4

thoughts on Warmboard (ME, etc.)

Funny thing about the Roth panel discussion where Warmboard came up. I would like to hear more about experiences with the stuff, support, rough labor allowances, timing, job site management..anything!

Prints were just Fed-Exed to me for a 11K sq ft Greenwich starter home. Client is sold on Warmboard thruout, with the basement being slab radiant.

This product is not prevalent here in CT, but I had the mfr ship me design criteria and I must admit it looks pretty cool! CA told me the area rep is in NY, so I'm tracking him down next week.

Have a Merry Christmas everyone!

[Deleted User]

Labor is a wash...

In most cases, you'll need to go through and clean out the track with a wire brush (used 1/2" fitting brush works great) and vacuum the tracks, but when you start rolling out the tube, it goes pretty quick.

It is recommended that you use a PAP tube product, because with the slightly larger O.D., the WB gets a better bite on the tube. According to some, if PAP is used, there is no need to silicone the tube into place. We do both (suspenders and a belt). Use a pneumatic caulk gun and it goes quickly. Figure on one tube of caulk per 100 square foot of WB, and apply sparingly. It's an adhesive, not a sealant. You don't need to see it oozing up to fill gaps. Use of a linoleum roller is recommended to insure tube is firmly seated in the groove.

We also find that the use of a non eletric thermostatic valve, i.e. Danfoss or Oventrop, provides the highest degree of comfort. This combination works great regardless of your heat source, but works particularly well with low temrpature heat sources, i.e. GSHP or Solar Thermal.

You still need to get involved early in the home design process to warn against high R values placed over the emmitting surface, but if you are using a conventional heat source (i.e. mod con or above) you have the SUBSTANTIAL ability to overcome indvertent R values that didn't show on the construction blue prints. You know the type, 1" thick Indian throw rugs that the Mrs. just HAS to put down...

Making transitions between the top of the floor and the bottom of the floor are best done with a 3/4" high speed steel twist drill bit. Drill straight down in the middle of the groove at your bury point, using a hole hawg or similar tool of destruction, then carefull, with the drill spinning at high speed, turn the bit sideways parallel to the groove. This gives you a nice place of transition from the top of the WB to the bottom without stressing the tube or having it hump up out of the profile of the groove,

I've seen my guys use a bit guided hole saw to do the same thing, and it does work, but those chincy 1/4 pilots don't like side stress (SNAP!).

Once below the floor, follow normally accepted standards like staying out of the way of the insulators (still required) until you get back to the manifold, or vice a versa.

Work with the WB designers, telling them where you want your manifolds to go, and what the anticipated zoning is, and what your maximum allowable tube circuit length is. THey'll design around your criteria. Plan your manifold locations to be within the maximum cap tube length of the NETRV, and try and plan that location where future access is not limited by finished materials. Closets work great.

Use 3/4" flexible PVC for your NETRV cap tube conduit. Avoid sharp bends, and conflicts with other trades where they might have to move your flexible conduit for you, without your knowledge. (Damned electricians...)

Make sure that you take any internal load bering walls into consideration in your initial design and layout. You'll have to work around them with your tubing runs,

Get yourself a good strong plunge router (2 HP or better) so you can do router work in one easy pass, instead of the required multiple passes for lesser HP tools. Gets LOTS of router bit guides, and make sure you check them for tightness very often. If you start seeing brass shavings, shut er down and tighten er up.

Keep lots of small, hardy strips of wood (6" long hardwood strips work great) so you can silicone down the return bends and hold them down with the short piece of wood and a screw until the silicone sets. We recycle these.

A thought that I have had, but have not had an opportunity to use is to purchase 3/4" foam backer rod, like they use for filling cracks prior to caulking, and roll these into place as soon as the WB goes down to make track cleaning a LOT easier. Storage, handling and transportation may be an issue.

Meet with the carpentry crew and let them know how critically important it is that all the groove be perfectly aligned. WB provides alignment tools with every order. If you collect them, you can "help" the installation crew keep ahead by having more than 2 alignment rods available.

Once installed, this stuff should be kept as dry as possible, and if the GC anticipates water load prior to dry in, I would suggest they "squeegey" all exposed butt joints with silicone so the wood doesn't absorb and swell. Wood is prone to doing that you know...

Once you use this stuff, you won't want to go back to conventional floors. It takes a little bit of convincing to the GC initially, but once he tries it, he too will like it and won't want to do anything else.

Take lots of pictures and notes. WIll be intersting to see how a person of your skill handles the install, and let me know if I can be of assistance.

Merry Christmas Mr Bona. Good to see you here at the Wall.

ME

Tim_34

Warmboard with a View

Here's a modest 2 story home on the Oregon central coast. We used Wirsbo PexAlPex and a heavy linoleum roller. Didn't use silicone, but it wouldn't be a bad idea.

The Warmboard people have been good to work with.

Tim_34

Warmboard with a View

Here's a modest 2 story home on the Oregon central coast. We used Wirsbo PexAlPex w/out silicone. The tube seemed to hold fine. I think Mark's suggestion to use some silicone would be a good idea if you're worried about the fit.

Working with the Warmboard people has been good. Their CAD drawings are excellent.

Tim_34

Few more Warmboard pictures

We had to custom groove several of the panels because this house had very few square corners.

Like Mark said, get a heavy duty router. We used a 3 HP with the templates supplied by Warmboard.

Bob Bona_4

Thank you

everyone for taking the time! Very helpful! PAP is a given.

Slab sensors: router grooves for 3/8 copper sleeves just like a QT install? Or sandwich to bottom of panel. I suspect the former.

Mark, you suggested wire brushing the PEX grooves. Is this just to clean off nasties that cling to the channels from dust/moisture or is there a deeper, darker reason. I suppose in a perfect world the channels can be blew out/ vac'd before PEX, but this being a subfloor it is exposed to wind/ possible rain before enclosure. Is there an issue at the channel edges re: burrs from panel cutting?

Good tip on the bury point. Got that down pretty good from the acres of QT I've done.

Upon panel install, do you fellows allot a man to supervise correct placement? I mean a guy who just spends the day(s) on site ensuring framers are doing it right? Leaving this in the hands of the GC or project super seems like quite a leap of faith:)

That's all I got for now:)

What is fantastic about this one is that it is gas. Thinking a couple of Prestiges at this point...

DanHolohan

This is very good information.

Would you guys mind if I linked it into Hot Tech Topics so that others might have access to it in the future? Thanks.

Bob Bona_4

sounds like

the routering is no fun! never like doing it w/ QT, and this stuff is like Ahhnold QT. My back is not what it used to be

I am a little foggy on the template subject as how it applies, since I'm a certified freehand routerer from way back (G) (made furniture in another lifetime), but I'm sure I'll get it once I get to that point.

Prints, believe it or not, spec out the floor coverings and zoning wishes. Now if they'd only spec the pad/carpet style..

hr

Once you router

You lose some of that nice transfer. Do as little as possible. Buy extra turn panels.

Th3e back half of this panel has a piece of carpet over it to show the thermal difference.

Also the routering shoots aluminum chips like bullets. Plenty of clothing and perhaps a face shield.

I'd highly suggest you personally supervise the install and be on deck with the framers.

They like to complain and trash talk the absentee heating guy. Sometimes

hot rod

[Deleted User]

I know I would have no objections...

It is afterall, your web site:-)

ME

[Deleted User]

Just construciton dirt...

If its in the track, the tube can't go in while its there.

Cut edges haven't posed a problem. I suppose if you felt necessary, you could use the alignment bar to smooth out the burrs, but there really aren't that many cuts to be made.

As for keeping a man on site during put down, I guess a lot of it has to do with your relationship with the framers. Our jobs have not required supervision, but your milage may vary...

Be sure and bring your boyscout wood working badge. you'll need it :-)

They provide two templates for routing with each order. A 180 degree bend, and a flat omega for offsetting around obstructions (closet flanges, outlets etc...) Oh yeah, they also provide the carbide tipped router bit as well.

You'll probably be able to keep the heat sources in full condensing mode with the exception of DHW production. Their output is nothing short of spectacular, even with low temps (110 deg F.)

ME

[Deleted User]

If I were you...

I'd take a good long hard look at the zoning recommendations. You, after all is said and done, are going to have to live with the results. Make sure that the usual stuff, like solar exposure, floor finish covering differentials and typical use areas make sense before the final plan is approved. Also make sure that manifold locations are in agreement with you rfianl control intentions.

While WB's CAD people are good people, they lack the real field experience that a person like yourself has to share.

Enjoy your new adventure, and let us know if you have any additional questions.

MErry Christmas Bob.

ME

Theealchemist

Along with

all of the above suggestions I'd consider caulking butt joints if rain will be an issue. Here in Northern California we see a good amount of rain during construction and the aluminum sheds the water to the butt joints where the plywood will sometimes swell. Think of water runoff and how to route it.......

marc

Tubing install

How do you go about installing the tubing after sheetrock? the 2 jobs we have done had all of the tubing running under walls, with the exception of separation with zoning. Both projects had multiple repairs due to ignorance on other trades. Both of our projects had the tubing installed immediatly after the warmboard was finished, this allowed for the tubing to pass under the walls. Thanks,

Marc