New House CO Poisoning

Bob Harper

Gary, I think you mis-read Ed Carey's point;

> Must confirm the origin &
> cause of both the production of the CO and the
> pathway through which it entered the home, to
> know what actually happened here.
>
> Ed Carey

Not so Dr. Thomas Greiner found a farm house in Iowa where loose construction allowed CO to be pulled back into the house through the foundation on a side wall vented high efficiency furnace.


Ed is pointing out you must figure out how and why the CO came back in rather than venting out. The incident in Iowa was an example of what Ed is talking about. Does not have to be only from backdrafting or blocked flues or disconnected pipes. Must remain open and objective.

Ed, I'll bet our mutual friend you were with last week will be investigating this one. Might want to check with Steg to see what he knows on this one.

Gary Reecher_2

Their new house in North Branch, Minn., was getting chilly when Mitch Carlson and his fianc

Mark Hunt

Makes me sick

What makes me sicker is how this just gets ignored.

Mark H

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Jeff Elston

Very, very sad

My mouth is hanging open and there is nothing coming out

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Gary Reecher_2

It is going to be a wake up call for everyone involved. The policeman the next time someone appears drunk but tests sober will be asking for a test of co along with that blood alcohol test.

The hospital staff

and the local HVAC Contractors


Gary Reecher

Brian

Tragic

I installed Trinity's for years.I was chomping at the bit to be one of the first installers.It was a new boiler though and had some glitches.It seemed that each one I installed was different than the one before.Any problems I had were quickly addressed by the company.The majority of my installs were propane,but there never was much of an adjustment to bring the CO in line.My question is how did the CO get in the house?It should have been exhausted outside.I feel sorry for the family .I would think by now every new house would have a CO detector on each floor.In Ontario it is now law that EVERY house has a smoke detector on each floor but not a CO detector and the fire department has the right to check without notice.
Although I no longer install Trinity's I will vouch for the integrity of the company.I've sat in classes that Clifford has taught and found him to be as passionate about this industry as any that post on this site.
I look forward to the results of the investigation.

Dobber

Edward A. (Ed) Carey_3

CO into house

As Dober said, how did the co get into the house? Just because a heating unit is producing high CO levels, will not alone make it cause CO INSIDE THE HOUSE.

I have tested many heating units where there were very high levels of CO in the exhaust gases, however they were venting properly, and the CO was not entering the home.

Therefore although it is not right, it is not going to hurt anyone. Repair the problem causing the elevated CO and you are done.

In this case, the heating unit was making high CO levels, ,,,,AND,,,, the exhaust gases including that CO were entering the home in adequate quantity to cause a fatal.

Must confirm the origin & cause of both the production of the CO and the pathway through which it entered the home, to know what actually happened here.


Ed Carey

Mark Hunt

Yup


I doubt that we'll hear anything more on this one though.

As I've said before, once the bodies are in the ground the story ends.

I got a story this morning about an apartment building that had to be evacuated due to CO. A flue pipe "came loose" and let the CO into the building. The story also mentioned that roofers were repairing the roof but did not indicate whether they had caused the pipe to "come loose".

I have been in homes where heating techs forgot to re-attach the flues after servicing the equipment. In one instance, the flue pipe had been disconnected for 5 months.
The HO in that house went ballistic.

Mark H

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Chris_82

now you understand my concern

I have lived this more than once, perhaps you can now forgive me my brief breach of edict on another post regarding inspectors, homeowners and giving out advice by the box stores which I will also raise issues here as well. The question currently is should a manufacturer voluntarily recall a product which may fail and yet still run, however when it does run it produces much more CO (keep in mind the vents for these appliances, based upon manufacturers lobbying have been severly relaxed, in some locals to 12" from windows and doors) or should the manufacturer just handle each (fan) failure as they arise and thus avoid all that bad publicity? Are you listening Dave!

Gary Reecher

> As Dober said, how did the co get into the house?

> Just because a heating unit is producing high CO

> levels, will not alone make it cause CO INSIDE

> THE HOUSE.

>

> I have tested many heating units

> where there were very high levels of CO in the

> exhaust gases, however they were venting

> properly, and the CO was not entering the home.

> Therefore although it is not right, it is not

> going to hurt anyone. Repair the problem causing

> the elevated CO and you are done.

>

> In this

> case, the heating unit was making high CO levels,

> ,,,,AND,,,, the exhaust gases including that CO

> were entering the home in adequate quantity to

> cause a fatal.

>

> Must confirm the origin &

> cause of both the production of the CO and the

> pathway through which it entered the home, to

> know what actually happened here.

>

> Ed Carey



Not so Dr. Thomas Greiner found a farm house in Iowa where loose construction allowed CO to be pulled back into the house through the foundation on a side wall vented high efficiency furnace.

Mitch_6

Similar to what

happened in mass a couple of years ago, an opening around the power vent penetration and a pile of snow in front of the vent hood. Co2 going outside then being drawn back in, mixing with the combustion air therefore throwing off the O2 to fuel mixture and producing co. The more it ran the more co got pulled into the house.

Mitch S.

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[Deleted User]

I concur...

We see MANY gas fired appliances that do NOT comply (less than 400 PPM CO) with industry standards that have worked fine for 80 years or so. However, all it takes is a misguided weekend warrior installing a new Jenn Air grill to upset the apple cart and cause problems. CO in exhaust gas is a given. Improper venting is the exception rather than the norm. Even appliances that I know for a FACT were properly set up to begin with can turn into a killer in the blink of an eye.

For whatever reason, a perfectly set up appliance starts back drafting and dropping byproducts of combustion into the room with the appliance, The combustion process is severly fouled, (tough to maintain a clean burnin the presence of CO2) and even more CO is produced. This CO is somehow conveyed to the living space (misnomer?) and people start getting sick or worse.

NO ONE, let me repeat that a little louder, NO ONE!!! is not susceptible to CO genreation and consequential CO poisoning possibilites.

Even if you do due dilligence and test the appliance, something can change in a heart beat and upset your apple cart, and it generally happens when you least expect it under conditions you did not know could exist.

But if you do not test and document, you will not know, and God forbid, if you ever have a situation similar to this unfortunate one and you did not test, I would not want to be in your shoes. There WILL be a line of attornies and expert witnesses that could curdle hard cheese.

My thoughts go out to the remaining family members. What a tragic Christmas story...

More to come I'm sure.

CO alarms should be MANDATORY in ALL homes, regardless of fuel source. Even in ALL ELECTRIC homes (car parked in attached garage getting warmed up for quick trip to grocery store)

But, given the HBA's attitude of trying to hold costs down, it probably won't happen until some Senators daughter gets severly brain damaged..

Disgusted in Denver...

ME

Perry_2

So how do we educate the public?

That is the real question.

I know I'm the oddball (from many perspectives)

But, I've known of the problem with attached garages for years - and the additional problem of the number of house fires started by garage fires.

So, when shopping for a house I bought one with a detached garage (and so what if I have to withstand about 30 Ft of weather between it and the house).

I knew there could be problems with CO and standard vented furnaces & boilers. So I was instantly attracted to sealed combustion units with outside air supply. So, while my Vitodens 200 may not be perfect - it will be hard for CO to get into the house if and when it malfunctions.

I knew about heavy snowfall problems, so I did the very unusual thing of routing the coaxial vent into a first floor closet and then out the sidewall well above the snowline (and a lot higher than any of the other neighbor's furnace vent's - which go out under the first floor) - even though the now boxed in area eliminates my previous use for the closet.

I also insisted in changing to an indirect hot water tank with the Vitodens (a several thousand dollar option) - in part to get rid of the open combustion system of the hot water heater so that I would not have to worry about it - or about the old chimney (and the other part is I want the option to remove the chimney someday - but I could have always kept the hot water heater now and not done anything with it until years from now (if ever) when the chimney is removed).

How do we get more people to think of some of these issues up front; and not just go for the cheapest feel good hot fad today.

I will admit that I have not installed a CO alarm; in part by the information on their problems (how well do they really work - for how long); and in part as I feel I have largely eliminated the problem.


Perry

Edward A. (Ed) Carey_3

Exactly Bob

Thanks Bob,

You are absolutely correct about what I meant in my post.

Also, thanks for your help on the phone the other day.



Best Regards and Merry Christmas to all,

Ed Carey

Gary Reecher

Qoute: I will admit that I have not installed a CO alarm; in part by the information on their problems (how well do they really work - for how long); and in part as I feel I have largely eliminated the problem.

Perry


Just to let everyone know heard that CO Experts will be sold through Grainger's soon.

Gary Reecher

Kevin Dennison

CO Posting

Based upon a preliminary inspection conducted on December 14, 2006, we believe that the boiler was installed contrary to explicit instructions and in violation of the local municipal code. We further believe that the incomplete and improper installation caused the boiler to produce excessive amounts of CO and allowed it to be drawn into the residence.

The contributing deficiencies are as follows:

1) The building was in an exaggerated negative pressure condition, as the air inlet piping to the boiler was omitted .
2) The failure to properly convert the boiler from natural gas to LP caused the boiler to emit an excessive amount of CO in excess of 70,000ppm. Normal CO readings of a boiler set up as per our instructions is approximately 40-80ppm.
3) The required fresh air intake pipe was not connected, leaving a 3" opening in the building approximately 1” from the exhaust gas vent, thus allowing dangerous flue gases to be drawn into the house due to the the negative pressure.
4) The omission to install a CO detector as required in the installation manual on both pages 2 and 3.
5) There is no evidence that the installer used a combustion analyzer as required by the installation manual.

Jim Davis_7

I have lost count of how many installations I have found that were code inspector approved yet were not in comformance with code. Code officials aren't held liable. We have had many code officials that would not approved installations if they found holes drilled in flues for testing even though they were sealed. They made us replace the pipes. I look forward to the day manufacturers will not warrant their equipment unless they have a combustion print-out.
If we had to recall every piece of equipment or installation that can malfunction and not fail safe it would be about 95% or better. Obviously there have been 3 or 4 recalls of equipment in the last several months and at least 2 class actions suits. If contractors were able to do their jobs correctly which means adapt the equipment as necessary on each job, these things wouldn't happen.

Plumdog_2

Speaking of feel good hot fads

How about that International Code. I just plumbed a new home that got a forced air job (designed by the homeowners mechanical engineer friend) that has several heat runs and a big return air right in the tuck-under garage. This raised red flags for me, so I looked it up. Nowhere could I find anything to prohibit this type installation. Uniform Code would allow heat runs (with fire dampers) but No Returns. Inspector just passed right over it.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

me?

Don't know if "Dave" refers to me, but my next column in CM deals with an inspector and CO. It's bound to get me in hot water locally, but I don't give a hoot - it's the same tragic nonsense we're all seeing everywhere, to some degree, and it needs to be corrected. Homeowners are not, for the most part, getting what they pay for where permits and inspection fees are concerned. Without getting into a finger-pointing contest, arguing about the crazy fees and lack of training required for inspectors, I offered our State a solution that would have ensured any inspection would be much better and it was flat-out rejected.

This story is gut-wrenching to read. Lots of "if only" thoughts come to mind.

Anna Conda

What stood out to me was that the original story makes it appear that the homeowner purchased the boiler himself, then hired someone to install it. If that was the case, this tragic outcome is all the more reason for good professionals to continue to discourage this practice. The money saved on initial install vs. the money spent on funeral, hospital, lawyers and repair? The economics are not good.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_2

RA in a garage?!?

Seems crazy there'd be a return in a garage. Makes no sense at all! Hell, I'd not even want to run a supply as they could draft fumes into the home via gravity flow while sitting idle.

Do the inspector a huge favor and call him or her to point that out. If they're worth their salt, they'll appreciate the heads-up. Or, you might be in an area like mine where mechanical inspections do not include the mechanical equipment - not even so much as a glance!

If the inspector isn't interested, the homeowners should be alerted.

Mark Hunt

Connected


When we do energy audits, we find some amazing things. A whole house depressurization can show you things that you never would have thought about.

For instance:

The first audit I performed was when I was proctored to receive my certification from BPI and NYSERDA. I used my in-laws house for the audit. In a first floor bathroom there is an exhaust fan. It vents into the garage. The house has a forced warm air heating system and, as is so often the case, it was out of balance. The largest return for the system was in the TV room which also happens to be the same level where the bathroom is. When the fan on the furnace ran, that area was depressurized enough to pull air FROM the garage into the house through the exhaust fan. Enough to kill someone?? I don't know, but we did identify a CONNECTION or path if you will.

In the early and mid-80's, this area went through a HUGE building boom. Condos and townhouses seemed to pop up over night. The amount of building was so great the utility could not possibly keep up with new gas lines. Subsequently, heat pumps were the most common systems being used. I mention this only because the heating appliances were not a source of CO. The townhouses were all slab-on-grade and the mechanical were located IN THE GARAGE. We built wooden boxes to set the AHU's on. No sealing was done nor was it required. Here again we see a CONNECTION. Leaky return "ducting" and leaky AHU cabinets provided a path for combustion products from autos and lawn mowers. Did it kill anyone? Not that I am aware of. Are those systems pulling CO into the house? I have no doubt that they are. Chronic CO poisoning.

Consider the number of homes built with panned joist bays and sheet rocked wall cavities acting as return ducting. An electrician, plumber or heeter guy drills a hole through that space and it becomes CONNECTED to another part of the structure. Might not be a CO source, maybe it's a mold source or a chemical source. Does it matter what it is that makes you sick? No. It's the connection.

Holes are amazing things. A persons perspective on a hole is determined by which side of the hole they are standing on. A person looking at a broken window from the inside of the house thinks, "I need to plug that or all my heat will go out". If they look at the same window from the outside they think, "I need to plug that or all the cold will come in". Well.......both perspectives can be right. Depends on pressure. High goes to low, ALWAYS! You have to test things to determine what is happening. The results will vary and you may be quite surprised at what you find, IF you test.

If any of you have the opportunity to take a building science class, please do it. The courses that Darin Cook and I attended completely changed the way we look at things. My tunnel vision is gone. I no longer see a heating/cooling system. I see a whole house system.

Mark H



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