Roth panels, or what?

David Meiland

I'm a GC starting a new house shortly after the first. We're trying to sort out the various ways of doing heated floors. First floor is partly slab on grade and partly framed over a crawl. Second floor is typical framing and is to be heated also. The designer has come up with a product I've never seen... Roth Radiant Panels. It appears to be a thin foam insulation panel with routed grooves for PEX. My plumbing/heating sub has not seen this before but has ordered a sample. Can anyone comment on this product, how well it works, why it is or isn't good, etc.?

We've talked about gypcrete, and I know there are a few other panel-type products out there. Warmboard has been ruled out for a couple of reasons.

What's the state of the art in hydronic over wood subfloor these days?

Rob_37

Check out Rehau's Raupanel system. Puts out more heat at low temps than just about any other system.

Rob

[Deleted User]

Curious...

Why not WarmBoard?

In my professional opinion, it is the MOST efficient heat emmitter on the market today...

But that's just my professional opine.

ME

David Meiland

Mark, Warmboard looks to me like a decent product, but if possible I would like to go with something that can be installed after the house is dried in. Warmboard is installed by the carpenters before walls are framed and in many cases it appears that the tubing is installed at that point also. I run my own framing crew and yes we could do that, but if I can avoid the risk I will. The other panel systems all seem to be installed as part of the mechanical rough-in.

Rob, thanks for the ref to Raupanel. I had not seen that system before, and it looks good. Their tile install detail looks a little challenging--I would have to find a TCA spec for installing tile over the system. A similar problem with the Roth is that they do not want you to thinset backerboard over it, which is how all backerboard manufacturers spec their products. The majority of the house is floating bamboo.

[Deleted User]

It does require a change in CPM....

But it is WELL worth the trade off. We install the tubing right after external walls and internal load bearing walls are in place. The tube is covered with (in most cases, but not always) 1/4" plywood, or card board or what ever. As for potential tube hits, there's no more exposure than there would be with a gyp over pour. In fact, less chance because all trades can see EXACTLY where the tubing lies, including hardwood flooring installers...

As for cost, I think that when you take into consideration ALL costs associated with a gyp over pour, including deeper joists for the additional dead load, interim support beams for longer spans, second sole plate trhoughout, gypcrete costs, hydrament silicone sealant and so on and so forth, the WarmBoards inital expense are nearly a wash, and the end user gets to chop about 30 degrees F off of their design operating temperatures.

We've done the Rau Panel before, and it works well, but does not have the bite on the tube that WarmBoard has and is much more difficult to configure for tubing home runs.

WarmBoard can also be designed around internal load bearing walls if their (WB) designers are aware of them prior to CAD work up.

If you are dealing with an alternative energy, like GSHP or Solar Thermal, WarmBoard is the logical choice.

ME

Unknown

I'm a big fan of warmboard mark, but a couple of things. According to the big boys, covering the tubing INCREASES your chances of getting punctures (they can't see the pipes any more), and let's not be disingenous.. hits happen.

I do think overall it's the best choice for new construction, even with the puncture risk. A couple of splices is nothing compared to the labor savings and output.

Raupanel is a good substitute, but it's more labor to install and (in some places at least) it's even pricier. I would personally only use it if you HAVE to install on top of the subfloor. Replacing the subfloor would be the no-brainer choice to me.

The Roth panels seem good, incidentally, but I have not yet used them myself. Some flooring installs seem like they would be challenging over it.

[Deleted User]

Rob....

How hard can it be to lift a piece of 1/4 plywood before drilling a hole? Inadvertent hits due to sharp tools and objects being dropped, yes, but people drilling holes through the deck, no. But as you said, it can be fixed and triangulated for future reference.

Personaly, I've experienced more tube hits in gyp jobs then on WB jobs, but that's just MY experience.

I think I addressed the cost thing, and this material is really not suited for retrofit consideration. More of a new construction methodology.

Although, having said that, I do have 2 jobs where WB was discovered "after" the fact (sub floor already down) and the owners paid to have elevation adjustments made to accomodate the WB.

Wasn't trying to mis lead. Just relating personal experience.

ME

Unknown

Sorry if I came across wrong Mark, but I do see a significant number of hits in warmboard jobs (they report about 40% of jobs see hits, and I have to concur with that number with the large number of warmboard projects we are involved with nationwide), and it's important to acknowledge that. And they themselves do not recommend covering the pipe because of increased hits on the job site.

I would suspect if you are not seeing this on your jobs, you are working with a higher caliber of tradespeople than most are privy to nationwide.

I'm surprised to hear of your experience though, we find hits in gyp to be pretty rare (though definitely not pretty when they occur).

and even with this issue, I think warmboard is still a superior product for all of the reasons you mentioned.

David Meiland

Hits? Ouch!

I'm wondering / hoping that tube hits are related to flooring installed with fasteners more than anything else. I am expecting about 70% of the flooring to be bamboo, and 30% to be tile. There are no fasteners with the bamboo--it just sits there. Tile, if over WB or similar would be with backerboard and screws, but if over gyp would be thinset over a liquid membrane applied to the gyp, no backerboard or screws.

All cabinet bases would be installed prior to tubing, as far as I can tell. You guys heat under cabinets? I assume not.

Who else might hit the tubing?

Unknown

probably 9 times out of 10 it's nailed wood flooring causing hits. cabinets are not usually a risk. once in a great while someone drops a knife.

[Deleted User]

Sharp objects found to damage tube...

Tri Squares dropped from atop scaffolding.

Drills

Box Knives

Screw guns

Rigging axes (used as hammers)

Hammers

Screw drivers

You name it, I've seen them damage the tubing, in most cases with gypcrete.

Two really bazarre indicents come to mind. One was a person who had tied the safety guard up on a circular saw. Put the saw down before the blade had stopped spinning. Ripped a rather nice gouge into the tubing.

The other, a young hispanic sheet rocker slipped and fell backwards with a screw gun in his hand with a screw in the screw gun. Hit the tube in the gyp DEAD CENTER. When he backed the screw out, water spurted up, so he (rightfully so) put the screw back in the hole and called us.

A major part of avoiding tube hits is education of the GC, and making sure he gets the word out to the subs that it will cost a minimum of $500.00 per tube hit. Ding their check book once and EVERYONE starts paying attention after that.

I did not charge the rocker because of his honesty, and it was an accidnet after all...

Education as usual, is the key to success.

ME

Unknown

That's a very good tip there Mark, and may play a significant role in the relative safety of your tubing! Is that in your contract or is that a verbal threat? Do you follow through?

Unknown

Someone around here used to talk about telling the trades that the tubing is pressurized with a poisonous gas I liked that one too hehe..

[Deleted User]

Verbalized to the GC...

The job of spreading th e word to the other subs is place squarely upon the GC. If one of his subs hits the tube, the bill goes to him (GC), and he can deal with the sub however he wants to.

I think HR has a sign he posts on his jobs telling the other trades of the "hazard". Only problem is, its written in English. Around here it would look like the Magna Carta with the dozen or so ethnicities working on the job.

ME

[Deleted User]

Hardwood flooring hits and WarmBoard...

If the hardwoody flooring guy hit the tube imbedded in WarmBoard, he'd better be a graduate of the Hellen Keller Hardwood Flooring installation school...

And he's better have a guide dog and red tipped cane.

I'd excuse that hit...

ME

Unknown

I hear you, but it happens. One plumbing apprentice on one of our projects had to drill a hole through a wall plate. Tubing, clear as day, running under the wall plate, and he takes his hole drill and just drill right down through it.

Sometimes you have to wonder...

Brian_19

Roth Panel

I just did a large Roth panel job this past summer. The panels are 2'x 4' sheets and screw down directly to the sub floor. The nice part about Roth Panel is the foam board it self is a thermal break. Most of the heat goes up to the finished floor. Very low water temps. The only time I would not use this is for hardwood flooring. Foam will not hold the staples.

David Meiland

Backcharges

are a tough topic. I try to use only the very best subs. I pay them what they charge. If I turn the whole thing into a minefield where a mistake can cost $500 they'll probably just go work somewhere else instead of coming to my job. One of the main things that defines "best subs" for me is the absence of any greenhorn punks on the crew, so I don't expect stupid stuff, maybe just the occasional honest mistake. If anyone hits a tube it's probably going to be me.

Glad to hear flooring installs are the major issue.

David Meiland

Brian

Somehow I missed your post on this. If I may ask, what were your reasons for using Roth and can you compare it to any similar systems in terms of cost, effectiveness, etc.?

Singh_5

Pregunta?

Porque no uso PAP?
Parece menos propenso danar, con warmboard.

: ) Devan

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[Deleted User]

No problemo mi compadre...

You hito mi tubo, I chargeo su mucho dinero. 500 dinero to be exacto.

Comprende??

Paco

Singh_5

Si !

Yo comprendo.

But serious, why not PAP, seems a bit more durable with the exposure with warmboard.


Feliz Navidad.

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[Deleted User]

We do use PAP...

Just didn't know how to express it in a fourin langwidge...

ME

Unknown

also look at

Quietsides Ondel Floor System. Rated an r8 and does not have the low crush of foam.

Simply Rad_2

Up the Annie

All I get from my GC is maybe a beer, I guess the $500.00 approach would work better. Keeping a clean job site helps to but I find most of my hits come form the drywallers and there NAILS wow those things are sharp. Even if you do get hit the system performance out weighs all. I just came from a few jobs this morning outdoor temps were around -15 and most of the systems were operating around 110 degrees. Another great thing I find is a surface temp differntial of around 5 degrees at most.
Very professional company too, great design crew, and a perfect way to document the system with tubing and manifold prints. WB answers all flooring attachment problems too. I have used others and flooring attachemnt can be quite tricky to say the least.

Unknown

I can't find any real info on this, do you have any? I do see it is 3/4" thick, so I'd have to question how you could possibly get an R8 out of that, and if it's true, where can I get stud sized sheets of it to insulation houses with?

ALH_4

above floor fin

There is always Thermofin-U.

Troy_3

Gyp less protective

OK mark- I can't take it anymore. I've tried to hold my tongue but to say an 1-1/2" gypsum concrete poured over pex is less protective than exposed pex in a groove of plywood. WHAT??? Are you repping WB now? To say WB is easier to adjust tubing to your room is just folly. It is fixed man. I always figured that all these advantages as you are giving WB are really their short comings. Yes I pour gyp. Yes I prefer Raupanel to every other dry system I have tried. I have been called in to two local WB jobs that make so much noise they are currently not using them. I'm not busting on WB. I'm assuming something wasn't done right. But the fact is you don't hear tube expansion in a gyp job. Any dry system has more noise potential than a gyp job.

Mitch_4

HAHAHA

How about this one..I had a sprinkler fitter apprentice tap a drop line for a recessed head into my GAS PIPE right next to the identifying sticker..

THAT make you wonder