B&G

Brad White_156

Perry- you confirmed what I had often been told by chemical treatment reps and mentors- thanks! But, do you suppose I am doing any harm by treating my system and using rare earth magnets to harvest the loose stuff (magnaloose? ;) )

I figure the iron and steel components are well enough coated but removing what has to be abrasive at some level can only help or at least do no harm.

Ernie

B&G

Is there a connection between B&G and Wilo? Just took this pump out of service because it jammed or froze and could not get it going with friendly tap. What jumped out at me was the inscription on the name plate after reading ME thread on Wilo pumps. Anybody care to comment as to why it would stop running, been in service going on 16 years. No hard particles or solder balls came out other than some back specks. Impeller and casting are coated in fine black like soot, could it be black iron oxide which is causing it to bind? When bench tested it ran in all 4 speeds.

DanHolohan

Wilo

once made B&G's wet-roter circulators.

[Deleted User]

Ferric Oxides...

will kill just about ANY wet rotored circulator. Looks like a good application for corrosion inhibitors to me.

16 years eh... Nice track record.

ME

Perry_2

I disagree with this Mark

The black iron oxide (magnitite) that is reported is what you want circulating in your system and is part of the natural environement for iron (or steel) based heating systems.

The alternative is for the iron to be in the ferric oxide (red rust) state - which can cause all kinds of problems - including pitting through the pipe or radiators.

Most corrosion inhibitors and oxigen inhibitors apply a forcing action for extra oxygen to be converted to magnitite (black oxide) to minimize the generation of ferric oxide (red rust).

Magnitite actually forms a protective scale on the iron parts of the system which greatly limits further corrosion (unless there is a lot of oxygen).

The higher temperatures common of the older systems automatically force the formation of magnitite. The concern I would have would be starting with a new system with a mod/con boiler that allows the formation of ferric oxide (red rust) and never get hot enough for a while to naturally force the formation of the magnitite. That is the application that needs the corrosion inhibitor to force the magnitite corrosion at lower temperatures (alternately - just run the new system at hot temperatures for a while). I am sure that somewhere someone must have some guides on the temperatures and length of time needed to force magnitite formation and to convert any existing ferric oxide to magnitite.

Thus, this system does not a corrosion inhibitor as it was reported to have black oxide (and does it have water that looks like black ink).

As to why the motor jammed after 16 years of service.... but then ran OK on a followup bench test. My guess is something got into one of the bearings and siezed the shaft. "Tapping the motor" allows most items to either break down or move under a small "impulse shock." This would have been something larger than that - which later came out.

Perry

Unknown

b&g pump

I NEVER knew there was a 4 speed B&G wet rotor pump! When did they stop making them? Very well said , Perry.
Overall, this motor outlasted all the B&G garbage bearing assys on series 100 in the last 20 years.

[Deleted User]

I stand (sit) corrected...

Thanks for the education Perry. It seems the more we know, the more we need to learn. For many years, we've ignored water treatment issues on residential systems. Its starting to come back to bite us in places we didn't think we'd see it.

I learned something new today thanks to your efforts. Thanks for the opportunity.

ME

Perry_2

Your Welcom...

I wonder if home heating people were ever taught this stuff. The old systems automatically ran hot enough to force the formation of the magnitite - and did not need water treatment.

I know it because of my power plant background where we deal with water from the mid 90's comming from the hotwell in the condenser and have to worry about protecting the piping and first several Feedwater Heaters until the magnitite naturally forms. Of course, power plants are also large enough to have an entire "chemistry" staff who does nothing but monitor and control water and steam quality - it's that important at the pressures, temperatures, and size we are at (millions of dollars in damage - and many multimillions dollars in lost generation can occur due to poor water chemistry issues).

The other issue I wonder about - on low temperature systems - would be prevention of slime and other biolical growth... I've seen a slimed up closed cooling water system at a power plant (once). I can well immage the havac it could do to say a radiant floor system with a mod/con boiler that never got about 110 F.

Since I don't have a system like that - I did not research how the home heating industry is handling that. But, control of slime and other bioligic issues (Legionair's, etc) - would require periodic chemistry checks and chemical treatment (every year or so) if the temperatures were not high enough to outright stop it - and there is any food source (and degraded antifreeze can be a great food source). I wonder if the deadmen knew of it and slimmed some old low temp systems and just found that keeping the water temp high was the solution - and it got lost in history.

Perry

ny homeowner

Water Treatment in Residential Systems...

is pretty much non existent. We treat our systems with a chelant/corrosion inhibitor, but we are one of few that do.

However, with the advent of aluminum block boilers, and the possible use of antifreeze, water quality issues have raised their ugly heads and we find ourselves playing catchup.

As it pertains to residential steel panel systems, I see a problem on the horizon that people like Rhomar are trying to head off. It just takes continuous education on everyones part.

Who would have thought that high efficiency systems would require annual fluid maintenance...

Thanks for the heads up.

ME

Perry_2

Magnets for water treatment

As long as you are only intending to collect the loose stuff - its OK (and some industrial systems use magnets as part of a filter or strainer basket to catch iron based particles).

You really won't remove the really fine stuff (the black ink effect) - but those particles are small enough that they really do not hurt the bearings. That is why the older and newer designed pumps run for decades with the "ink black" magnatite water.

The thing to be carefull of are the companies who sell "magnetic" based water treatment systems (somehow the magnet "magically" removes hard water minearls and all kinds of other stuff. Thats nothing but a scam - and been well disproven by the major damage in systems that they have been installed on. I once read what was susposed to be a "scientific" paper on how it worked - and was laughing so hard by the time I got half way thorough it. Used lots of big words - that are words in science - but completely did not understand what the words actually meant. I wish I had kept a copy of it.

Perry

Perry_2

What would probably work....

Staying with plain water would probably work best if you do not have other galvanic issues (such as with Aluminium installed in a mixed metal system). But what may be needed is an initial startup followed by a periodic hot temperature cycle similar to what some of the indirect hot water heater circuts have to control legionairs desease growth. Get the system hot when you fire it up at the start of the year for a while - and periodically run the temperature up for a few hours through the heating season.

Once you start adding other things you need to be sure you are not adding a potential food source down the line.

I have never dealt with Rhomer or their chemicals - but it would probably be interesting to talk with one of their reps on what they are intending to do.

Perry

Ernie

Magnitite

System water is perfectly clear but all inside of piping is coated with the black oxide. Originally had 3 of the same type pumps on my system, replaced one with a Grundfos 3 speed in Feb. 2003 because of the same problem. Off course I was away, and it was the coldest week of the year, management was not pleased at all. Cleaned it put it on the shelf for 3 years and is now running in place of the one I just took out of service, it runs a indirect hot water tank.

One thing that stands out is that the Grundfos, and Tacos, on my system both have 4 set screws holding the body to the waterway casting, where as the B&G only has 2 holding the body and casting together. I wonder if this could be contributing to the binding problem over time?

[Deleted User]

Perry, For what it's worth...

I've been using magnetic water conditoners successfully for around 30 years now. I would NEVER recommend that they be used in a critical service application, like a steam boiler, but for protection against lime scale accumulation (calcium based) I have seen them work in places that even I had my doubts as to their potential.

I typically recommend their use in potable DHW systems to avoid lime scaling, or eliminate existing accumulations. I can not tell you how they work, but I can tell you without a doubt, if properly applied they will work. I too have read all the scientific reports from Russia, Israel and the U.S., and they all basically said the same thing I'm saying, which is "We can't tell you exactly how they work, but they do remove existing lime scale accumulations and will keep the wetted surfaces clean of lime scale.

Now, being a person of your magnitude, working with the power and energy that you do, I do not fault you for not recommending their use in THOSE applications. But if you have a problem with hard water (calcium, not silica) accumulations on heated surfaces in potable DHW systems, I'd suggest you give them a try.

Also, as with ANY water conditioning device, you MUST properly size the unit to the maximum flow potentials to be seen.

I have been beat up by some of the best industrial engineers regarding my statements on these devices, and I continue to recommend their use. Some people here call it "annecdotal evidence", but when you've seen the results that I have seen ALL over this country, it's pretty hard to dispute the body of evidence. Not to say that there aren't some bogus systems out there, but the few I've worked (Lime Fighter and Superior Products) with provide excellent positive results.

http://www.superiorwaterconditioners.com/

How can a company (Superior) stay in business for over 40 years and deliver bogus equipment?

Just thought I'd give my $0.02 worth...

ME

mtfallsmikey

Mark, we are looking into

Possibly installing a magnetic system in my 2 buildings, and my boss's building in downtown D.C. He has been to a couple of seminars on these, and I'm going to one right after the holidays. I admit to being a total skeptic, but I think these will work just fine on my condenser water systems. To everyone else: just make sure that if you are doing residential water treatment to use the proper backflow device for your systems!