Radiant Quandry

Bob Sweet

like alot of fun. What is in the carrying case looks like some type of programmer??

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Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

Looking at an 1800's farm house

Interesting change in water temps for various applications:

1 - suspended tube = 173F

2 - double plated (thin) = 150F

3 - above floor = 105F

4 - extruded plate = 107F

5 - ceiling = 105F

Here's the question: If I go with ceiling app on the second floor and a floor system on the first floor - do they really need to insulate between the two floors? Seems to me that since there's no direct contact to the 2nd floor flooring and none at the 1st floor ceiling, that disturbing the old plaster or wide plank flooring might be avoided.


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G.Kaske

Just a homeowner Dave, but my ranch style home has radiant ceiling on the main floor, and radiant floor in the basement. No insulation between the floors. Everythings just fine, a radiant sandwich. Those are about the average water temps I'm running.


Gordy

Tim Doran_4

Not Needed

No need to insulate in this application as the insulation is normally only there to control back loss and migration from the active panel.

Tim D.

Brad White_162

Thermal Sandwich

I agree, Dave, no need to insulate between the floors. Assuming the spaces above and below are comparable in temperature the transfer will be minimal. It ought to be quite comfortable. Just back-insulate the radiant panel areas as per normal practice and you are done.

subcooler

I always wanted

All radiant ceilings. Like the power of the sun. Plus you heat the top of the furniture and bed , not the bottom. That will be in my second to final home..

[Deleted User]

Comparable loads???

If the panel loads per square foot are relatively the same, then I'd say no need to insulate. They'll both be running at the same theroetic loads at the same time. But if one area has a substantially different load than the other, I'd insulate. Blown cellulose works great and can be done through a 1" hole.

ME

Floyd_29

Wondering....

How you plan to do the ceiling???? What materials are you planing to use??? Very interesting the numbers... and I'm wondering how you can get ceiling numbers to match the floor....always for some reason thought that temps. for a ceiling would be much higher than that.

Thanks!!

Floyd

[Deleted User]

Ceiling surface temepratures...

are limited by the materials used to finish them. Paper and paint (sheetrock) need to be limited to around 85 to 90 degrees F. Some commercial radiant celing panels typically operate with 180 degree F water on a regular basis, but their emmiting surface can handle those temps.

My copper plated ceiling radiant heater can and has run as high as 150 degrees F. The intensity of the heat can be a little mcuh at times, but I intend to control that soon with a 1 watt circulator:-)

ME

Steve_35

Doesn't Siggy say

radiant ceilings can be run to 110 or some such? I don't have his book in front of me but we did one of these and I reviewed his info at the time.

OTOH, I'm thinking of water temp. I imagine it's somewhat cooler at the surface. I haven't shot the ceiling. The HO is another contractor I work with fairly frequently so I'm sure I can get back in there.

[Deleted User]

The carrying case...

is actually my Palm PDA. I put the pumps there to show size perspective. ThePDA, however, can be programmed to communicate with their Intelligent Pumps.

ME

Unknown

my 2 cents

WIth a bit of experience designing such systems I would say to it's personal choice to insulate between the floors(I would). No substantial gain because you are not using that as the panel. You will find if you insulate your floor upstairs (where the radiant ceiling is) will maintain a higher surface temp.

The insulation will cut down noise between the floors... nice to be able to have quiet downstairs while the kids are playing upstairs.

Gordy

Questions for Dave

Some questions Dave.

Is this farm house a gut job or partial renovation?

Obviously you are trying to avoid tearing out the 1 st floor ceiling so what is your ceiling radiant system going to be up stairs?

Attached to back of plaster with plates?

Ceiling tearout with a sleeper type system?

Just curious because my ceiling system is embedded in the plaster, tubing 6" on center. Wondering if the performance you are looking for can be done with those water temps.

My system is probably way over designed, but it is quite powerful, and allows the lower water temps with the tight tubing centers I have. This house has seen some winters where the temps outside were 15 degrees lower than design day -10* in my area with power to spare.


I guess what I'm wondering is how modern methods of ceiling radiant compare to an embedded type system of old.

Not saying old methods are practical anymore who does full plaster in this day, and age. The mass does have to help though. My average water temp is 105* which translates to about 83 to 87 degrees at the surface of the ceiling.

Just sharing some information, and trying to learn new tactics for ceiling radiant.



Gordy

Gordy

Merry X-Mas

Merry Christmas !!