Follow Up (Steam Heat Problems)

Mark_69

A few months ago I posted on here that I was having difficulty keeping my house comfortable without breaking the bank using the 2 pipe steam heat system. I had a few suggestions to buy the "Got Steam Heat" book (which I did and read) and to post some pictures. So I am posting again to show some pictures to still seek help. My scenario is an older 2800 sf house with a steam heat system with a 10+ year old boiler and both base board heat (1st floor) and convectors (2nd floor). My basic question/problem is: why can I not keep my house comfortable without using 350 - 500 therms of gas a month during the heating season? If the t-stat gets turned up to about 72 or if it is really cold out then the system kicks in and warms the place pretty well, but obviously that gets expensive and the pipes really seem to hammer. The book said to check the vents and the traps (I've had 4 traps and valves replaced). The pressure is about .5 psi. I have heard the main air vent hiss during operation so does that mean it works 100% of the time or should I have it replaced anyway? Also, I can not seem to find a F&T trap. I have attached a picture of the end of the main supply before it drops to the floor and returns to the boiler. Would a F&T trap help get heat upstairs (upstairs is consistently 62 degrees if the t-stat on the first floor is set at 68 or so) since it appears that the supply turns to go upstairs at this point and maybe force steam up instead of into the return? Would there be a reason not to have a trap? Is there anything else I can do to keep things comfortable and still affordable or am I stuck? Any help or suggestions would be appreciated.

DanHolohan

Christian Egli_2

Can't breathe here

It seems from the pictures that your green main vent is indeed located on the end of the return, not the end of the main. Where do your return pipes go? I can't see from the pictures.

Any ways, if the green vent in on a return, a two pipe atmospheric return, and it is hissing, and you have banging, and I'm guessing you have long cycles and a system that is slow to come up to heat -- it's because that green vent is not letting nearly enough air out and it is very possibly pressurizing your returns with steam and causing damage to your radiator traps.

It seems you have an air eliminator there, these gadgets where meant to work with a wide open hole, an open hole to the atmosphere. They were not meant to stop steam at all. If you have steam in your returns, you need to go back and fix your radiator traps.

Go back, verify that we are talking about your return and then, remove the green air vent and open the hole as much you can. Then watch what comes out. You should get gushing air on start up, then nothing anymore, then perhaps after a long cycle, just some whiffs of flash.

It also seems your boiler is piped without a header, but I couldn't tell from the view. No header is bad on a modern boiler.

What kind of radiator traps have you got? and where are you located? Is this a typical Midwest two pipe system?

Is it cold outside? For the size of the home is your fuel usage reasonable, often, boilers have nothing to do with how large a place is or how poorly insulated it is. Nonetheless, your steam should heat you up quick (5, 10, 15 min) and without any noise whatever.

Brad White_159

Bigger D.A. Question

You may have answered this in the previous posting (when was that?) but is the house insulated and to what degree? How many SF? All of that.

The therm usage needs something to compare it to. Not that the system is off the hook or playing a role in this, but the heat loss of the house is.....the connected radiation is......

Sorry, just have to ask.

Mark_69

Brad,

Thanks for the reply. I originally posted in August I believe. A few answers:

I don't think the house is insulated much and it is 2800 sf. It was built in the 30's and is mostly brick with a wood frame addition built in the 60's. I just had 10" of insulation blown in the attic this summer and installed new windows before we moved in 2005.

I compared it to my brother's house (800 less sf, but similar construction about 5 blocks away) and they used about 1/2 of the therms last month. I have a gas dryer and he has electric, but it still seems like a large difference. His gas/electric bill has been consistently about 1/2 of mine in the heating months.

Mark_69

Christian,

Thanks for the reply. I think the vent is located at the end of the return. I have attached a few more pictures that hopefully will show the whole picture. The return pipe drops to the floor and into the boiler after the vent. Picture 005 shows the vent with the return below and picture 010 shows the return at the floor below the vent. What is the/an air eliminator, is it the thing next to the pressuretrol? I'm not sure what kind of traps and do not know enough if this is a typical midwest system. I know I use about twice the gas therms as my brother who lives 5 blocks away and has a similar house though about 800 sf smaller. I will try to remove the vent to see what happens.

Maybe this is the most efficient this system/house will run, but it is frustrating when the t-stat (would it be worthwhile replacing this?) is set on 68 or 69 and our upstairs is 62 or 64 and it is too expensive to get the house comfortable. I've always had warmer upstairs than downstairs.

Unknown

is that a eg 50 or 55?

I think the pipe coming off the eg 50 or 55 supposed to be 2 and half inches dia. Also the hartford loop nipple is way too long.
From these pictures, there more we need to see with all the plms you are having...

Dale

fuel and comfort

I may have missed it but is your brothers house steam also? And is your system is off and the house cold do the upstairs rads get hot as fast and as hot as the downstairs ones? They should. I am not at all surprised that the upstairs is cooler, after all the downstairs has a warm top to slow heat loss, a warmer floor because of all the heat loss from your basement pipes and the upstairs gets more wind. Looking at the size of your pipes you need to remember that maybe 1/2 your fuel is used to warm up those pipes when the system starts. Whatever you use for a thermostat should be set for 1 cycle per hour. I agree on the vents and traps from the other posts, I also would bet your boiler needs cleaning/skimming so it releases steam as well as it can. The first thing is to fix the traps and get plenty of main vent off to see if that improves things. I think there's an F&T trap somewhere that needs to be replaced since it looks like you have a dry return. good luck

ttekushan_3

draft

Blower door test each house. Perhaps as holiday presents.

Compare.

I'll bet the mystery disappears.

Also combustion tests. Excess draft on those boilers will pull all your input btu's up the chimney.

We hook these adorable post wwII boilers and furnaces to chimneys designed for the Coal Era where they draft enough to accomodate a Titanic sized fire. "Whats that coming out of your chimney?" "Oh, just $50 bills." Check it out. If you can reduce that denomination to fives or tens, you save a lot of fuel.

-Terry

Mark_69

Dale,

My brother's house is not steam (forced air). Sorry. I should have clarified. Is steam more inefficient? The upstairs convectors do not get as warm as fast nor as hot as the downstairs. In fact, a few rarely get warm, even the ones that have had the traps replaced, unless it is very cold or the t-stat is turned way up. I'm obviously not an expert, but do not see anything that may be a F&T trap. It should be above the water line correct? I had the boiler cleaned and serviced before the heating season last year and was told it wasn't too bad and it looks ok when the boiler cover is removed.

Mark_69

eg 50 or 55?

I'm not sure what an eg 50 or 55 is (I'm at work and my book is at home so I can't look it up). Please explain. Thanks.

Mark_69

Terry,

Please bare with me as I'm not an expert, but can you please explain a blower door test and a combustion test? I assume any reputable HVAC service company could perform those. What do the test check for and what can be done with the results (in other words, what would the results tell me).
Thanks.

Unknown

eg 5o/55

That's the boiler's model number given by the wiel mclain boiler company. You can find it by taking off the front panel and see the label on the inner panel. This is a good boiler, like all boiler compines, they must be piped correctly...

Christian Egli_2

Death by strangulation

That's what's killing you on your fuel bills, and since steam systems are the superman of heat, it really should takes kryptonite to get the job done - the air choke you're holding it under right now only forces the boiler to work harder and to eat more gas. Give it a break.

You'll need to remove the kryptonite colored vent atop the air eliminator, along with any reducing bushings. You want a big hole here. Big.

Then keep the hole open for all times.

Your system air will now be able to scramble when the steam arrives. You'll be able to feel a distinct blowing during steam up, a blowing not unlike what we blow out of our open mouth.

That's about all you'll need to do to observe wonders. (providing there isn't other work to be done) In ordinary shoulder season, these return pipes never get burning hot.

So keep on observing what comes out of that hole. If strong steam ever gets to geyser out of it, perhaps in a very cold morning warm up, you'll know you have bad radiator traps to be replaced. If needed, you'll have to replace the traps for sure.

You show no pictures of it, but somewhere near the end of your main, follow it around your basement, you'll find a crossover trap, it's just a radiator trap piped like a radiator, but without the radiator. Keep an eye on this trap and make sure it works. Keep feeling it and see how fast it gets hot. Feel also it's outlet pipe - it should not get hot for a long time after fire up.

If you only find suspicious pipe plugs near your main end, you'll know to get a crossover trap reinstalled. No big deal.

Next, tell us how your radiators are warming, they should all get hot silently and quickly. The distant radiators will get the steam later than the first ones, but not by much. Play with inlet radiator valves to slow the radiators you rather keep cool. And you'll be much happier and warmer than your brother - and for less money (if everything is comparable).

This is a very typical Midwest system, it's plain two pipe. It operates with no air vents and with very low boiler pressure. More than 1.5 PSI gets you in trouble.

Make a nice customized gear shifter knob out of your current vent.

Do you have a picture of your radiator trap?

Steamhead (in transit)

You may need more venting

than that vent trap may be able to give. It was sized for coal firing, where the steam came up gently. A modern oil or gas boiler makes more steam more quickly, so the system would need more venting.

Measure the length and diameter of your steam mains and tell us what vents (if any) are on them.

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ttekushan_3

its a more specialized test.

you may have to search a little for an energy company that can do a blower door test.

Its what the name implies, meaning that a blower is sealed into a main outside door, appliances are generally shut off, and the blower turns on. You can feel and see where the air is able to infiltrate your home. The tester notes everywhere infiltration is excessive and what economical corrective measures can be taken. In older homes there's little risk of over tightening the flow of air through the structure..