Your dream system - for yourself

Perry_2

A lot more interesting people in the south pacific.

But, thanks for the reminder.

Perry

Perry_2

Your dream system - for yourself

What kind of heating system would you build under the following scenerio:

-- You learned that you would could build the "reasonable" house of your dreams. You have the money - and can get new parts (or reconditoned used ones if appropriate).

-- You were expecting to live in the house for at least 50 years, and also expected to pass the house to your favorite kid - and then their kids (a condition of the gift of age and the money to build the house). i.e.; you want the system to really last without major repairs to it.

What kind of heating system and what equipment would you use?

Would it be steam (and perhaps steam under a vacuum) with nice old style cast iron radiators?

Would it be gravity hot water, or monoflo T hot water with cast iron (or other) baseboard type radiators?

Hot water with AL fined copper tubed baseboard?

Radiant floor Hot water?

Other - or even other kind of heating system entirely?

What kind of boiler including which brands would you consider?

What kinds of Controls and pumps?

And finaly, Why did you chose what you chose...

Inquiring minds would like to know...

Perry

jp_2

woodn't

i wouldn't trade my wood stove for anything!!!!

less than 1.5 cords a year, $4.00 in chainsaw gas, and the fun/exercise of cutting wood out in the bush.....chopin wood too

Al Corelli_2

If I had the money...

The house would be on a beach on a tropical island, and have NO heat.

Seriously,
Staged Munchkins, Vision 3, Outdoor reset
Full radiant floors with walls/ceilings in the bathrooms.
Kitchen granite countertops with tubing under (very nice, I've done it)
Nice solid construction with 8 inch walls all insulated with spray foam, nice and tight.
Complete snowmelt system for every garden path, driveway, shop floor, brick or paver on the darn property.

And, on the front lawn I would do soil conditioning in a pattern. It would be in the shape of a huge dollar sign, so I could see my money being wasted during every snowfall(haha)!

____THEN----

It would have a complete two pipe steam system with beautiful old radiators with polished brass traps and ornate chromed valves with ivory handles. A huge boiler (maybe a 350 Mills)with a HUGE header all done with screw fittings and restored chain operated king valves. I would buy all the threading and cutting machinery just for this job. It would be a work of art. Any of us would walk in there and just cry. No poop. The real deal.

We must remember the dead Men.

And you can bet your butt that the mechanical rooms would be seperate and each done to perfection. maybe even have the vapor mech. room done with "period correct" valves and gauges. I'd only stray with the oil burner. It would have to be a fully-optioned Weishaupt. Every bell and whistle, pyrometers, closed loop, the whole shebang.

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Steamhead (in transit)

Steam, of course

specifically, 2-pipe Orifice Vapor using cast-iron baseboard.

Advantages:

1- It contains much less water than a hot-water system;

2- It runs under much less pressure than a hot-water system;

3- It could run on just about any fuel with the proper type of boiler and safety devices installed. Currently, I'd use a Burnham Mega-Steam;

4- It would have a bare minimum of moving parts;

5- It would not need antifreeze for freeze protection like a hot-water system would (I believe some countries restrict or prohibit using AF for this due to environmental concerns, expect to see this here at some point);

6- The use of cast-iron baseboard would give a very even heat, like a standing radiator but without taking up the space.

7- The Dead Men would cheer so loud we'd be able to hear it all the way down here.

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Uni R_2

Hrmmm...

Piping first... manifolds at two temps. One for in slab and the other for panels and some (current or future) underfloor. Slab manifold all pex/pap and all PEX fittings isolatable and are expected to leak at some future time. No buried slab fittings.

The second manifold would be black threaded and another Uponor manifold for the pex/pap. Any panels or fittings going behind walls are threaded end to end from boiler to rad. Any plastic connections must remain accessible.

Nice panels, and all TRVd and FHVd floors... towel warmers via the indirect.

Both panels and infloor for all rooms (except kitchens and baths etc.) Usage set to be one, the other or blended.

Tekmar 422 driving the boiler via 0-10v and a tekmar motorized mixing valve to maintain the narrow spread in temps. 945 stats and those scene buttons. A zone controller doing non-home stuff. The whole house would be single temp with TRVs everywhere... 545 T-Stats liberally sprinkled liberally all over the house... and their network interface and a new mac - about time i got an excuse for a mac!

Then basically my boiler tank and my future buffer tank.

If the heat loss were allowed to go below 25k (concrete/ styro/ concrete sandwich) , a Thermolec modulating boiler or two instead along with a Marathon water heater. Maybe 5 instant electric water heaters as well so that I could make the neighbour's TVs jump when they're watching the news!

Insta-electric-filled hot tub! zap... L

The big assumption would be that pex in walls or floors can fail and that the heating system will get replaced over time. If using an indirect that indirect will be kissing the boiler, even if Ron Jr kicks my butt for saying that!!! L

Pumping the whole thing would be a superbrute or other sized curc if required on all the primary parallel circuits through the boiler. Heat, DHW, partial snowmelt, hot tub. TN4 driving the whole show from anywhere in the house and later the world. The internal 15-58 circ would just do pumping to the manifold on low, big sluggish piping. A Callefi DPV would be used until a reliable VS circ could be installed inside the boiler in place of the 15-58. The DPV choice of manufacturer would be to make up for not using their multi circuit header. This would be piped with more flexibility and separation.

And I'd give WEL the $520US as well and hook up sensors all over and send y'all the link!

Maine Doug_53

The home

would be on wheels or float on water. As the outside temp dropped, I would move to warmer outdoor temps. This is of course counter to the heat moves to cold law but it does fit outdoor reset. As it got colder the view outdoors would be changed to a new view.

Direct Solar would be used and alcohol fuels in hand held containers, some with small pex tubes for oral transfer. A large block of cast iron to convert fuel to mechanical energy would have HX's to provide DWH. Modulating controls for improved efficiency and condensing to compensate for the degree day errors in climate forecast.
Best of all, the geographic relocation heating system allows one to change neighbors at will.

Christian Egli_2

Options for the truly fortunate

If my name were Perry, I'd simply go shovel some more uranium into my very own nuclear power plant - a steam powered plant, no less.

Wouldn't you?

Uni R_2

Doug has it...

Furthermore it counters the seasons by keeping you one the sunnier side of the equator with the longer days that help fill the sails with wind.

And I can monitor the other from there... you've been hi-jacked so to speak.

I love your idea... leave lots of headroom if you ever invite people from here.

ttekushan_3

Steam, here.

But what kind? Ultra simple single pipe that's finally not oversized? Has a lot of merit. Pretty standard two-pipe? Vapor? Vacuum? Subatmospheric? In the interests of having the new system serviceable in the future, I'd opt out on the vacuum and subatmospheric. And I'm prone to liking the temperature control available with two pipe. And the piping freedom involved with having dry returns. I also like the way a two-pipe radiator fills with steam.

So, in agreement with Steamhead, two pipe it is. I also favor inlet orifices but with standard steam traps. I don't have a selection of Mouat traps lying around, and if properly throttled, the steam traps will last a very very long time, and failures decades in the future won't destroy the efficiency of the entire system.

I favor standing cast iron radiators, but I really like the recessed ones, either convector-looking or open with big bronze grilles, like in the old banks and public buildings.

Since the house will have a garage that'll be attached through a small greenhouse/garden area, I'll need a few pipe coils to run around the glass ceiling to temper radiant heat loss.

The garage would have wall radiators at the back, but also hanging wall radiators above the garage doors, for radiant overhead heat.

The only complicating factor I'd love to throw at this is a Johnson Controls or Honeywell pneumatic zone system, with two temp pneumatic thermostats (they shift temps with a change in air supply pressure. Very clever). Why pneumatic? Very reliable for one. But pneumatics have the unique feature of being proportional. A little cooler, the valve's a little more open. And vice versa. Zone every room separately? Probably not, but just a few zones that will encompass sets of logically grouped rooms.

And the heat source. I, too, like fuel flexibility, and given the heat loss of a 3500 square foot house with enclosed "breezeway" and heated garage, I can make the jump to a dual fuel Bryan DR 250 forced draft flexible water tube boiler. Low water content, responsive and with a 2:1 turndown ratio (but don't quote me on that. But it does turn down).

Why these choices? Its mostly a question, I guess, of "why steam?" Let me say right now that I'd never kick a good hydronic system out of bed. Radiant warmth and natural convection currents rule. But, for me, steam is the grand master of heating systems that went out of vogue when large pipe sizes and critical piping techniques pushed their first cost so far out of sight that pumped HW looked a lot better to builders. And it even looked for a while that pumped HW would be crushed under the load of cheap furnaces and AC.

But there's something about high radiator temps when you want it or need it. The strength and warmth of the convection currents are a wonderful respite from the cold when you come home an kick up the 'stat a degree or two. And 215º (or more) steam does it like nothing else for me. Steam can be gentle, but it also can be furious. Its all in the design of the system, or the parameters you set up on the pressure controls. Ever open a 1-1/2" radiator valve on an old factory 36' (yes, foot) wall radiator while the boiler's going full bore first thing on a cold Monday morning? I'll never forget the sound of the steam rushing through that valve; the fact that it could heat 36' of cast iron from 50º to 230º in 4 minutes; and standing 30' away, feeling gentle heat wash down from overhead as the heat came across the ceiling.

Conversely, the vapor system is a study in refinement. The steam is supplied long and low. But there's still no doubt that you're cohabitating with a hot surface that's there to give you that warm hug when you're feeling chilled.

And finally, the physics of steam is really a good study of thermodynamics of non homogeneous systems. You've got liquids and gasses, some condensible, some not. What happens when the lightest, least tubulent element in the pipes is gleefully carrying a herculean amount of heat energy is the essence of efficient thermal transfer. The steam dumps virtually ALL of its energy in one painless trip to the radiator. And its a fast trip. And without pumps, per se. Yes, the boiler heating surfaces are a few percent higher in absolute temperature, but the high temp difference at the radiators make up for this in large part because of the high ratio of radiation surface area to boiler heating surface area. And the collapsing of the steam into water at the radiator's interior surface create a laminar layer of intense vacuum that pulls more steam in to fill the void. The very demand for heat in a room powers the flow of steam. Talk about a heat pump!

Then throw a Cain Industries EM stack economizer on that boiler to preheat the feed water, and we're really talkin' comfort, responsiveness and efficiency!

Aren't you glad you asked? Don't answer that...
-Terry

Check out these recessed rads. Yes there are rads under there:

Mike T., Swampeast MO

My "dream" system would begin with the house itself...

1) Oriented/designed for passive solar collection during the winter with an active shading and air redistribution system to reduce summer overheating and distribute any winter overheating to other sections.

2) Insulated Concrete Form foundation & walls; Structural Insulating Panels for the roof.

3) 9' - 10' basement ceiling with tube-in-slab radiant in the floor.

4) Best quality vinyl framed windows with high-performance glazing chosen for the direction they face.

5) Simple footprint with no more than one projection.

6) Minimal west-facing glass.

7) Significant north-facing glass (for the wonderful light) even if such is an energy splurge...

-------------------------------------------------

Heating system:

1) Tube-in-slab basement. Dedicated, proportional mixing valve with independent reset.

2) Warmboard with FHVs for all hard surfaced areas and public spaces. Standing iron rads (thin-fin-tube) with TRVs for supplemental if required because of significant or heavy "soft" floor coverings. Dedicated proportional mixing valve with independent reset.

3) Standing iron radiators (thin-fin-tube) with TRVs for most private spaces.

4) Radiators on the "high temp" circuit--preferably sized to never require more than 130°F supply. Automatic detection of user desire for "quick heat" with ability to override normal reset curve until such demand is satisfied.

5) Closed-loop geo if at all practical; otherwise Vitodens 200.

6) No fireplaces but perhaps a catalytic free-standing wood burning stove (preferrably soapstone).

-------------------------------------------------------

Cooling:

1) All overhead supply at perimeter; returns high on walls.

2) If not geo, Rawal variable expansion valves for high humidity removal and modulating operation.

-------------------------------------------------------

Ventilation:

1) Energy Recovery Ventilation system integrated to A/C ductwork if possible.

2) "Smart", multi-speed, single motor, remote-mounted ventilation for baths.

3) Great if 1) and 2) could be combined...

CC.Rob_2

el sol

For a 50-year house from scratch, I'd optimize for solar (and wind) to the maximum extent possible. This obviously implies radiant to a large extent. (Do I get to pick the lot, too?) Potentially off-grid, but likely with some backup that could evolve over the lifetime of the structure (e.g., next decade = mini-boiler; 2nd decade = fuel cell; etc.). Interfaces to mechanical systems would be flexible.

The most significant expenditure would be the up-front time finding a contractor to whom I can pretty much say: "Here are the basic parameters. Go for it." Based on my reading and other education, there are one or two people on this site, for example, I would trust with that. Not that I wouldn't participate in the design and construction process, though. That'd be an important part of why I undertook the project in the first place.

Perry_2

Thanks all...

I like the simplicity and long term durability of the steam system, and also of a monoflo T system.

I am especially intrigued by using steam under a vacuum. 180 F steam seams about Ideal. I like the resesed radiators.

When I posted the question I had already thought of the "living in the tropics" where I would not need heating (nor A/C if you do it right). However, I did not want to stiffle discussion.

I had not thought of using a large boat. Its a winner, just be sure you can long term maintin it as well.

All in all - an enlightening discussion.

Perry

Supply House Rick

Ahhh Dream System

Where the climate is never hot or cold, maybe 75' year round with a fresh water steam to bathe in. Not use fossil fuel ever. My controls would consist of opening or closing the windows...Just dreaming, someone pass me my drink with the umbrella in it...

Rick

Perry_2

If you can accept about 80 F - it is real

Can you handle a daily high and low difference of 2 degrees F, with a yearly high to low of 4 F from summer to winter.

If so - then the Carribean islands are for you; and equally suitable locations in other parts of the world.

I have been there - and yes, I could adjust to that. No real need to even open or close windows. Just need some bug screans...

Perry

Jed_2

I might suggest

that many of you "northern climate dreamers" just might become bored with the monotiny of such idyllic ambient conditions. Be honest with yourselves! You were'nt born there. There is beauty in the northern seasonal climate changes you will never see again. There's always exceptions, of course. And I believe the seasonal changes are very good for the soul.

Jed

brucewo1b

Jed but might I sujest that

Some of that beauty will be on the beach all year not just a few days out of two months, might just help with the monotony of it all;-)

Maine Doug_54

One can

always visit change of seasons. Snow is nice when it is actually falling in big puffy flakes. Snow is nasty when you have to clear the parking lot. Leaves are nice when they are on the trees but in full fall color. Leaves are not so nice when they fall to the ground. Spring is pretty when the flowers sprout or whatever it is they do. Spring is the pits when one hears "Dig the hole here". "Yes Dear".

So seasonal climate changes can be selected and scheduled. My soul will be rested.

GaryDidier

Perry

Dont forget the hurricane shutters!!!!
Gary from granville

Larry Weingarten

OK Perry:

One more entry. How about a tall hillside SIPS home built on ICFs. Extra insulation on the ICFs and under the slabs. It's off grid with solar thermal as well for space and DHW. Very low heating requirements because of the ICF floor, walls and roof surrounding the living space. In the basement is a large solar storage tank. In the walls are finned copper tubes, placed according to heat loss calcs. It is a gravity driven radiant system controlled by non-electric greenhouse window operators. These open and close ball valves to control flow of warm water to walls. There is very little to maintain once set and no power use at all in the heat distribution system. 80* water can keep the house at 70* and it is completely silent.

Been dreaming about it for years and finally moved in about two months ago :~)

Larry Weingarten

Perry, one more.

One more entry. How about a tall hillside SIPS home built on ICFs. Extra insulation on the ICFs and under the slabs. It's off grid with solar thermal as well for space and DHW. Very low heating requirements because of the SIPs floor, walls and roof surrounding the living space. In the basement is a large solar storage tank. In the walls are finned copper tubes, placed according to heat loss calcs. It is a gravity driven radiant system controlled by non-electric greenhouse window operators. These open and close ball valves to control flow of warm water to walls. There is very little to maintain once set and no power use at all in the heat distribution system. 80* water can keep the house at 70* and it is completely silent.

Been dreaming about it for years and finally moved in about two months ago :~)

Yours, Larry