Steam gurgling/perculating; vertical riser issue? Help...!

RonL

One question I have. Is it common practice in some parts to put ball valves on risers and returns?

Dave_86

Steam gurgling/perculating; vertical riser issue? Help...!

We had a beautiful old W.H. Smith boiler that worked well, but the lower radiators tended to hiss and spit. The burner went out, and long story and a lot of unqualified plumbers later, a new boiler was put in. Now, the system panted like mad and the radiators nearly all gurgled and "perculated," that is, sounded like they were boiling. I cleaned the system a few times (once by Peerless instructions with washing soda!, the others by cold skimming) until the oil seemed to be out, and put on small valves on the radiators (Gorton #4) which quieted the downstairs. However, all the upstairs radiators, to varying degrees, start out sounding like a babbling brook when they start to warm up, and the longer it's on, the more they sound like an electric perculator making coffee. The main vents and returns in the basement appear to be tilted properly, albeit not very deeply. The babbling-brook sound DID appear iwth the old system, not the panting, and not the severe boiling sound. On taking off one of the worse radiators, I saw standing water by the first swing joint a couple of feet down; I was trying to snake it "just in case" (I've been assured by a couple of steam guys that "clogs aren't possible" but they don't have any answers). Couldn't get the snake through - I'm a homeowner, not a plumber - but the standing water in the joint struck me as being a potential cause. Does this or any vertical riser problem make sense? The radiators themselves don't seem to be clogged or filled with water, which was the installer's thought. The installer sees the problem but insists it has nothing to do with his piping, which in theory is good and doesn't seem to draw much water, but is not high enough according ot manufactuer specs (he has old engineering books which he says justify his calculations that he has a "32 inch equivalent" distance, but it's still only 18 real vertical inches over the waterline).

I'd really rather not repipe for obvious reasons (two thousand of them) especially if the problem is not even in the near boiler piping! Can that standing water in the swing joints for the vertical risers be the problem? How would I test that out and/or fix it if at all?

By the way, the big Hoffman $45 vents did wonders for reducing the panting, and Varivalve vents upstairs eliminated most of the whistling and helped reduce the panting as well. The Gorton #4s worked for eliminating whistle and gurgle on all but one downstairs radiator. Pitch is currently level on the upstairs radiators but some had been overpitched.

Steamhead (in transit)

Is the boiler

sized correctly? An oversized boiler can cause this. Also if there is oil sitting on top of the boiler water, the steam will be wet which can also cause this.

Check the boiler's rating against the installed radiation, and skim the oil off.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Dave_86

As far as I know...

the boiler is sized correctly. Installer #2 measured it against the radiator size and EDR. It's actually undersized by his estimates, though not by much. It's about 177 net output compared with the original at 210 or so (acting from memory). As for oil, I don't think that's the issue, but if it is, how would I deal with it? I've already cold-skimmed several times so the sight glass is clear of mist.

I take it from your reply that you don't think the vertical risers could be having an effect. I'm wondering if it's the near boiler piping after all now.

Steamhead (in transit)

Are you

the same Dave with the milk-crated Utica boiler?

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Dave_86

Not only am I a different Dave but I don't know what a Utica-crated boiler is!

Steamhead (in transit)

That was in a different thread

too many Daves here ;-) How about a pic of your boiler and piping?

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Dave_86

Attached!

Jamie_6

Dave,

After looking at your picture it looks as if your header is too low. You need at least 23 inches from the top of your water-line to the bottom of your header. Although, without being able to see the sight glass it may be fine.
We also like to drop that wet return portion all the way to the floor to insure a good water seal on the rear portion of the boiler so steam does not work its way to where it should not be. All in all it is a clean looking install. Someone took a lot of time and care putting it in.

By any chance are you in the Philadelphia area?

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Dave_86

He did indeed take a lot of time and care, but he is one of those steamfitters who so much he couldn't be bothered to follow the instructions. I'd like to hear more about that water seal on the rear portion of the boiler... it is below the waterline normally. Regarding the sight glass, I could probably post of a video of that! but the water doesn't jump around too much. The last guy to come in said it looked normal; he was stumped, and that's when I posted. The install "shouldn't" work well but the radiators aren't spitting...just gurging at first, then "boiling/perculating." (Correction: _one_ radiator is spitting, but it always has.)

Guess I should try recording the noise one night...

Additional notes: the problem is MUCH worse at night; I am in Northern New Jersey so not so close to Philadelphia; and is there anything _other_ than boiler piping/too much water that could cause this?

Dave_86

Overfiring

Last night's cold snap may have helped in diagnosis.

In the night, there are now the kind of bangs I associate with steam hitting water in the lines.

I wonder if it is indeed overfired - makes steam very quickly and the steam seems to be in a BIG hurry to leave.

Is there any chance this isn't due to getting wet steam from near-boiler piping? I'd really like to know before I spend yet anotehr couple of thousand on what might be unnecessary guessing.

Also - how exactly WOULD one clean the riser, which could be the problem based on the amount of gunk in the return lines? I tried using a snake but couldn't get it around the first swing joint.

... Update: I guess I should be flushing it with a garden hose. Unless I flush it back into the boiler (!) that means I have to hire someone at that lovely $150/hour rate (plus spend $150 convincing them to do it since they won't want to, when they could repipe the boiler instead for a nice $2,000). Thoughts?

Guy_6

gurgle

Even if the old boiler had used that same header at the same height (which appears too low) it may not have gurgled as much due to design:
The Smith boilers have an oval top passage, which is actually designed for steam.
The oval shape allows sufficient space for water on the bottom and the steam up on top. They are just a bit more forgiving in cases like this.
BTW- if used for a water application, the oval passage makes no difference.
I think that you need to raise that header up 18" off the top of the boiler.

Dave_86

The old boiler was about three feet taller so it just went right into the horizontal headers; just a bend...is there no chance it's something that doesn't require a couple of thousand dollars worth of repiping for that 24 inch clearance? (It does have 18 inches.)

'Course I'm not sure it would cost any less to clean out the returns and risers!

PS> Read up a bit more on overfiring which would cuase the same symptoms, from what I've seen. I don't know if there's a way to adjust the firing rate on this boiler, though. It does seem to be more boiler than we need, and it sure blasts the air through the system quickly - too quickly!

Ron Schroeder

Jamie Pompetti

Could this not be turned into a dropped headder cut one nipple reuse the 90's and add a couple of long nipples/threaded pipe and a union, same on the return one cut add some pipe and pipe backwards to the unions??

Jamie_6

Dave,

I do not think there is a cheap way out, just a right way! You are going to have to raise that dimension up to the 24" mark and you should really drop that return to the floor for the Hartford loop. It also wouldn't hurt putting a Vaporstat on the system so those dimensions are a little more forgiving.

I also think the original fitter should do the job for no cost! You already paid him once to do the job correctly. But that's just my 2 cents!!!!!


To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Jamie_6

Dave,

I do think it would be possible to chop out some of that pipe with a sawzaw and throw in some unions, long nipples, and elbows to make it correct!



To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Ron Schroeder

Jamie

Thanks for your answer, I was trying to come up with something less than total rebuild since he just spent a lot of money, and it would only be right that the original installer make it right in my opinion

Bruce

Dave_86

So there's no chance the problems are due to some other factor, e.g. boiler being overfired (no idea how to adjust a Peerless Series 63 if it is indeed adjustable), etc.?

Installer calculated the "effective" riser height as being 32 inches based on some mechanical engineering textbook he had, due to the swingback and added horizontal-header length.

Steam does seem to come boiling out of that thing at a rate far beyond the capcity of the system to absorb it. At that, though, it doesn't usually hit the 8-ounce pressure limit on the vaporstat until near the end of the cycle if at all.

Dave_86

And if you were here in New Jersey, I'd have you here in a flash to do that!

RonL

Header

The water line level from the base of the boiler is listed as 25 7/8 inches. Therefore, the bottom of the header should be at least 49 7/8 inches from the base of the boiler. It might be my perspective of the picture, but is there a concentric reducer on the header?

Dave_86

Yes, the pressure gauge sprouts out of it.

Bottom of horizontal header is 41" from the base.

I know it's wrong but would it cause the gurgling/boiling/perculating noises?

RonL

Header

The Peerless installation manual for the 63 states:
" Notice
Do not use bushings or concentric reducers in the horizontal header piping. This will prevent water from dropping into the equalizer and cause water carryover into steam piping."

Also, is that a Gorton I see mounted to a tee at the end of the horizontal return?

Dave_86

Gak. I really wish this guy had read the instructions. As for the Gorton, that's now one of those big $60 Hoffmans.

Joe K_2

questions

I was confused. Are you saying the bottom of the header is 15 1/8 " above the water line? Also are you saying that
you are running at less than 8 oz pressure?
JK

Dave_86

Plus or minus an inch, and yes. I replaced the pressuretrol with a vaporstat partly as a wild attempt to not spend yet another $2,000, and partly becvause I figured it was a good idea anyway. The pressuretrol, though marked to 1/2 pound, had an actual minimum actuation of 2 pounds.

gerry gill

installer calculated the riser height?

say what? bulls**t...calculate my butt..its called a tape measure..i thought i heard it all..the others are right..raise the header..get the concentric fitting out of it..check the firing rate..

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

T-O

Looking are your picture, first I see no insulation on the header, risers to mains and most like none on the mains as well. The condensation should be at the radiators not on the pipes leading to the main or the main itself. Second, check your main drips piping and return. Your return lines are very high. The drip piping should go straight down from the ends of the mains to a couple of inches up from the floor. Usually the drip pipe is about the same diameter as the main until about a few inches below the waterline level, then reduced to a smaller size pipe, ran along the wall and back to the equalizer. First insulate and see how that works.

Boiler Guy

After reading this complete thread

I have come to the conclusion Dave does not want to accept the installation is not according to the manufacturers instructions. If the instructions were not followed by the installer, it is his responsibility to make it right -- at no additional cost to the consumer. Even reconfiguring the existing to a drop header may not solve all of the problems due to increased velocity in the restricted header. JMHO

Dave_86

That is true. The return lines are and have always been high and relatively small but now it does put out a lot more steam, more quickly. I've thought about the possibility fo clogs there...

Dave_86

You are right. I totally agree with you. However, I have no legal recourse and the guy absolutely believes himself to be totally right. He's argued with Dan and with Advanced Hydronics / Peerless and came to the conclusion everyone else is ignorant. He's the only smart person ... well, and his helper. Short of going to court, I can't budge him. On the other hand, I did not realize the instructions forbade the use of concentric reducers too ... Dan's absolutely right when he says to put "according to the instructions" into the contract.

Boiler Guy

There's the root of the problem

"the guy absolutely believes himself to be totally right"
If it's not done by following the installation instructions (at a minimum) IT'S NOT DONE RIGHT !!
I take it he's got his cash and dashed! What about manufacturers waranty? 2c

Christian Egli_2

The relaxing and therapeutic sounds of steam

RonL spotted a real offender. A concentric reduction will give you all kinds of problems. I reviewed a job like that once, on the site, the crew was busily welding in a concentric reduction. I predicted the problem, suggested the immediate quick fix, but of course the supervisor did not think my fuss was worth the trouble.

You know who was right? Sadly nothing happened until after the owner had to experience severe water hammer. You won't be the first one, Dave.

One make-do idea would be to turn the concentric reduction by half a turn (and hope for no leak) so that the pressure gauge points to the floor. Then, instead of the pressure gauge, you pipe a mini equalizer line from here to the floor and back into the boiler. But honestly doing this patch up is no easier than just removing the concentric reduction and changing the two tees.

That will take care of the boiler noise. You say your system also made noises before.

Are all your mains properly pitched with no sagging between pipe hangers? That's a problem that is easily fixed. Check also for gaps of bare pipe where the insulation is gone. Everything works better with continuously insulated mains.

Looking at your picture, I see an insulated pipe in the 12:30 to 1 o'clock area. This pipe looks like it is a supply and it looks like it is stepping up into the continuing horizontal main. Envision a salmon trying to keep up with the flow of steam, like the condensate, do you think it can actually make the jump up, and if it can't jump up (which condensate won't) can it flow back - backwards - to the boiler?

This jumping and backwards flowing does not occur without causing much noise. If I saw correctly (but I did not see much), a pipe revision is appropriate here too. It's easy, all you need is a drip line that goes from the bottom of the step up, then down to the floor and into your Hartford connection, like a wet return, no traps, no checks necessary.

This way you might no longer enjoy the relaxing babbling brook sounds.

Oh well.

Jamie_6

Wow, Good eye! I didn't even notice the concentric fitting!

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

clammy

where in jersey

From the looks of the picture i too would make a vote on the drop header and dropping those 2 returns down to below the boiler inlet and throw some easiely removable plugs on the drops for the wet reurn and the boilers return inlet ,other then the less then 24 inches above the water line just a few little things but i would probaly say dropping the 2 returns down lower will help amd as for the bad rad you may have to look a little deeper and see if the raditor has groved it self into the floor raise it with checkers of furnuture cushions ( rubber felt)and if it has proper pitch back to the supply valve if it's a single pipe another good thing to look for is if some one may have changed a hand valve and changed the high and just let the rad pitch swing joints in between floors slag .Where about in jersey are you located ,I'm in north jersey good luck and peace clammy

clammy

sorry to ramble

But on second look and the output of the boiler that header should have been piped using both riser and probaly at a miminun for header size which should have been at least 2 1/2 with 2 inch equilizer and the haertford loop should have st 90 or close nip and 90 facing down well below the boiler return inlet instead of the rolled offset 45 there .Not to bust chops but have you looked at the manafactors suggested piping and pipe sizes and asked the plumber to check them out and did you price this job out for others to bid just wondering ,I also run across these beauties and it seems to me that everybody tryes to get by on the cheaper bid just to nto really get what they excepted but really got what they paid for the extra money in re piping is really what the job should have cost in the first place peace and good luck clammy

Bob W._3

Can't tell from the picture but is it possible that boiler has two tappings??

bob young

in n.y.--a do-over

sorry to say but what you got here is a **** looking for a father. whoever piped it was a good enough pipefitter but no steamfitter because he knew nothing about steam and absolutely did not even glance at the suggested manufacturers piping diagrams. only remedy ---rip out the piping and do it properly. four hours work , skim it and relax for the next twenty years. no sense trying to repair it because you will never get it correct. sad but true.

Dave_86

OK... time for a long nasty talk... and thank you for your directness.

Dave_86

Thanks (esp to Christian Egli and RonL) - I would never have thought of the concentric reducer OR the, um, salmon thing.

The pipe coming out is 2.5 inch as per Peerless specs, at least. There is room for two pipes coming out, which would be better, but that's optional (required for larger boilers of the same series).

Time for a long talk with the steamfitter.

Incidentally, if, as I suspect, I get nowhere with this guy, ... I see clammy is here in North Jersey... anyone else?

bob young

concentric not

a concentric tee or coupling on a steam header or anywhere else on a steam system where it is contrary to flow creates a physical trap for condensate , is a mortal sin and furthurmore proves the installer knew absolutely nothing about what he was charging you MONEY for and should rip it out and fix it or give you a refund so you can hire a competent plumber or STEAM FITTER who actually knows his job. it makes me very upset to see a situation like this. the guy obviously thought he did a neat ,good-looking job but had not a clue.

RonL

Re-piping

If you have the boiler re-piped, you may also want to move the air vent on the return back 15 inches and put it on a riser. Having the vent on a tee at the end of the horizontal subjects it to hammer and will shorten it's life.