Service or Replace

Unknown

am seeing a lot of is getting rid of steam systems and replacing with FHW. This is becoming a practice that many contractors are following. I feel it is a sad decision as a replacement boiler can do a lot toward revitalizing a steam system. What do you think?

Unknown

What is your policy?

Recently in classes the topic of replacing equipment versus servicing equipment has come up. One particular large company has a policy of replacing anything older than 15 years on a furnace and 20 years on a boiler.

Another company removes all steam systems and replaces with forced hot water.

Still another offers only boilers as a replacement for all systems including forced warm air.

Last of all another replaces all powerpile systems period.

I am curious as to what the feeling about all of this is?

In many instances the feeling is that due to the cost of parts and labor they are doing the customer a service to replace and modernize the system instead of repair.

Brad White_9

Brad White_9

The attached table

from ASHRAE has been an excellent tool for either in-house jugement or to educate an owner about upcoming potential events or long-term replacement programs. Gives a point of reference, nothing more.

Of course, the condition of each piece adds to the drama. A lot of it is a risk assessment: You do not want to be stuck as the last person who touched whatever it is and a typical owner on a budget wants to make do with what they have.

I suppose if you can get an owner to sign off on re-use (assuming it is not worthy of a red tag) you can get by.

Unknown

Thanks Brad

I was hopeing to get some input from the installers/service people here on the Wall????

clammy

personally

Personally timmie i myself on hat air units think that after 15 to 18 years it's about time unlike a boiler a hot air unit already has a jump on CO poisoning with a great distrubiton network alrerady in place and as for boilers it all depends on weather or not the unit has seen any service on the oil end it seems alittle better then gas at least with oil at least once in a coulpe of years someone has cleaned it on the gas i know the only time it gets serviced is when it ain't working .On the boiler replacement side i believe after 20 years on most hot water boiler it's about time to replace if the job hasn't been serviced or properly installed from the get go plus usually i can drop there ulity bills with a newer unit and up date the piping and stuff i try not to leave any stone un turned but it is always a hard sale unless they have had there fill of BS from the ulitily or service co and are not happy and are not getting a guarente about system performace or a good warranty on the work .I always sweeten the pot by giving them 2 years on install and 2 free system check up to make sure everything is up to snuff,on steam unless she complety mudded and was piped badly sized wrong or high fuel bills it usually just waiting for the call you know no heat water leaking all the good stuff but when your stuck bidding these jobs against those who are not as anal or have any ideas of doing some quality work that some one can easily service it a hard sale all of my work i do is all word of mouth if there is not a refference i usually will look but it's always a wash .If you don't have the time to do it right the first time you will never ever find the time to do it twice and usually for free peace and good luck clammy

jeff_51

we offer both repair or replace and price on invoice

If I think I can do a good job on repair, I will let the cust know, if not I will let them know. We price on many things to make the repair as costly as the replacement.
For instance, a major rebuild on a water closet,(meaning we pull the tank and and replace ALL parts, is the same or more as a new wc. To rebuild a boiler or furnace is an all day job anyway, so why not replace it? The price ends up the about the same anyway. Alot of things are done for liability issues, which is ALWAYS a lagit reason to replace. A question I ask my cust is would you put 10 grand in a car that is 15 yrs old, or by a new one for 20 grand. Unless it is a collector, the answer is no. Same thing on alot of our equipment. What is the life expectancy after the repair? Do we really gain anything? How long do you intend on staying? A 20 yr old furnace usually isn't worth fixing, the same may not be true on a cast iron boiler. As Dan says, one of the answers that is always right is, it depends.

pitman9

It depends

A 35-40 year old gas fired furnace may go on indefinitely. OTOH, it may fail tomorrow. A new furnace will be much more efficient resulting in a great ROI. It's really time to at least start budgeting for replacing it.

A 15 year 90% gas fired furnace is very near the end of its lifespan and a plan should be in place for replacing it. At 10 years probably 2/3 of its life is used and an expensive repair may be justification to replace.

In ALL cases we need to keep our hands OUT of the client's pockets and let them make the decision. What we need to do is to make them aware that replacing the equipment might be or is a valid option and to offer them pricing for a repair or replacing it. That said we have run across units we refuse to repair because of safety concerns.

Mitch_6

Depends on the customer and individual situation

If the situation is boarder line I will consult with the customer. I inform them I do not have a Cristal ball. Sometimes you can make a repair (ie element on an 8 year old electric water heater), and you get five more years.
Then again could have to change the tank in six months.

If they want a guarantee I tell them repairs are to try and save them money, the only absolute (within reason) is replacement.

For steam I change allot of steam boilers no problem. I only suggest changing to FHW if there are other issues or the H.O. wants a little more out of a new system.

I always tell people when I am looking at an old boiler.
I have serviced some boilers for over 20 years that themselves are 50 years old, every time I see them I think it will be there time, but they just keep chugging and the H.O. does not want to change them.

Then again I have had to change boilers as young as five years old you never know.

Mitch S.

Ron Schroeder

\"\"One of the things I

am seeing a lot of is getting rid of steam systems and replacing with FHW. This is becoming a practice that many contractors are following. I feel it is a sad decision as a replacement boiler can do a lot toward revitalizing a steam system. What do you think?""
Tim your right but I think that comes down to the fact that many people feel more comfortable with FHW and they don't want to put in the time to learn what they perseve as a lost art.
On the other hand friday I went to a customers home to skim the boiler and she said my daughter says its time for me to just replace the whole system and go FHW, when I told her that her systemn was fine just needs a bit of TLC she was all smiles.
I think it also boils down generationally too, what did you grow up with, I grew up with FHW and like it but have grown to apreciate steam in the last 25 years working with it.

Steamhead (in transit)

Tim, from what I've seen

tearing out steam just because it's steam is one of the biggest scams going. Any contractor who makes a policy of pushing this is in my opinion nothing but a ripoff artist. Tear-outs are real labor-intensive and cost the customer a lot of money, not to mention disruption to the building.

I've seen botch jobs where an existing Vapor system was converted to hot-water and leaked like a sieve, badly damaging the building. As soon as one leak was fixed, another one popped up- but it never leaked before the botched conversion. I run away from these jobs- too much liability- unless I can change them back to steam.

And is a well-operating steam system really so much less efficient than hot-water? I doubt it, but no one seems to want to make a head-to-head comparison. Must be too much work to do this. It's just too easy to condemn steam, which they don't understand and don't want to understand, so they want to tear it out. Maybe I'll have to get real rich and do this myself.

Meanwhile, I'm saving some of my customers over 36% on their fuel just by fixing their steam systems. From a cost-benefit perspective this can't be beat.



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clammy

removing steam

This is one of the saddeat things ii know of i personally do not try to sell the removal and replacement with hot water unless there are alot of issues with existing system piping .I think in all my years i have only switched 2 systems one because of being completely over filled and the whole system froze a real mess another was a exetreme reonvation and it was impossible to keep the steam without a chimmey and drastics structural changes .I have once or twice begged HO not to remove there systems but they did and the saddest part was this was a beautiful vapor system 3 1/2 story home(8500 sq ft)2 pipe every rad in the home got hot switched to heat pumps with electric heater have never heard from them it made me nearly cry but i think there electric bill may have made them cry being they only burned a couple of thousnad gallons a year . In most cases i always feel like the guy who takes the camel to the well but you can't make him drink peace and good luck clammy

Constantin

Too true...

... at todays fuel prices, it doesn't make sense to blow out a well-performing steam heating system and replace it with something else unless you're already in the throes of a complete gut-job. Even then, the payoff can be marginal.

As Al (Eleft) likes to point out, there is little sense to heat a 60% efficient home with a 95% efficient boiler. I too would much rather see all that energy, money, and effort spent on conversions go towards tightening the envelope instead. Once the heat loss is minimal, whether you heat with an 80% or a 85% efficient heating plant becomes less of an issue, right?

I hear you though when it comes to the sillyness of customers who are dead-set on one solution w/o giving you the opportunity to sway their (hopefully open) minds. Sadly, that happens in every business.

Unknown

Contractors need to be educated

on procedures that truly save energy and sell those to customers. The old systems we have here in New England can really be a plus when it comes to looking at the overall efficiency of the home.

It is my attitude that everything that can be done to revitalize those old systems should be done. I continue to teach the old and the new but emphasis on the existing system and what can be done to increase its overall efficiency. A new steam boiler with a cleaned up steam system can save at least 25% and for a lot less money than some of the new FHW systems are going to cost. I have seen a lot of these new and wonderful high efficency packages sitting a curb side after 10 or less years. Maybe I am just old fashioned but I would rather fix them than replace them if I can.

I have a class going through right now for liscensing here in RI and one of the required reading and curriculm presentation will be on steam. As a bonus each student will recieve a "Lost Art of Steam Heating".

I even find older warm air systems which have very good and solid heat exchangers should not be removed. My own system an old GE cast iron heat exchanger warm air system. I run it on Powerpile and still have the original blower and motor. It is over 55 years old. It is set up on Constant Air Circulation and with the addition of my pellett stove I get very good heating efficency. Many years ago we put all new doors, windows and blew in insulation into the walls and added six inches in the attic. I am contantly working on things to save both money and energy. It can be done it just takes eduction and the willingness to really help your customer.

joel_19

steam

Timmie , that's easy it is because there are very few plumbers that understand steam and how to pipe it . They do a couple wrong get sick of the lady calling never really fix it and then say " Heck with that I'm never working on steam again." In our area we are the ONLY company that still advertises steam work as far as I know and there are hundreds of companies .
FR is another reason how do you put it in your book when the kid your sending out with your FR book doesn't have a clue what he's looking at? DiTTo for most salesman.
Some won't even work on a pilot system as most younger folks 10 years or less in the industry where never trained on or have ever seen anything but electronic ignition.

Mitch_6

the cost of doing it right always comes into play

I do not know how many jobs I have gone to look at.

I measure and count "all" the radiation, check the placement of the main vents, check the returns.

I plan on a chimny sweep to inspect the flue.

I plan on a fan in the can wired by a licensed electrician.

I plan the job all steel and cast iron. Piped with the Hartford loop right to the manufacturers specification down to the reducing 90 looking down.

with tees and plugs in the wet returns not elbows.

I plan to pop the jacket off the boiler, remove the skim plug and install a nipple and 45.

I plan to check inlet and outlet pressures on the gas valve and do a combustion analysis oil or gas.

I plan to come back after the system is has been running for a while to re skim and maybe treet the water.

What I see on the jobs I do not get is one copper pipe up and one copper pipe in. You can guess how it works (although sometimes the installer is lucky).

The jobs I get are only from people that know my work and trust my ability. The price shoppers want it down, dirty and cheap. The installers do not know or care about what they do.

It is this attitude that ruins our industry. Once a system is installed wrong. It is the systems fault.

It is tough to mess up FHW enough to make it perform like a poorly installed steam boiler, ya the boiler could be to small and the piping wrong but pumps cover allot of mistakes that allow the system to work 80% of the time.

I am looking at a job right now that has a 138mbh boiler attached to 201mbh of load and the gas line is to small for a larger boiler or even to handle whats on it now.

know what it keeps the house warm enough most of the time and that was enough to let it slide.

Steam you do it wrong and every time it fires you know it.

Just Venting

Mitch S.