uneven steam

Unknown

I expressed that balancing the rads and main vents in the building & changing the boiler to the proper sq. ft.will bring heat to all the rads per the cfm measurements I took.

Again the problem is the 2nd floor rads would not get hot untill after all the other rads in the building got hot. After they got hot, the steam would suddenly shoot to the 2nd floor rads. The same thing would happen even with the rad vent and/or the radiator was removed.The risers and pipes were cleaned and looked at to make sure there were no obstructions

The problem here is that Joe doesn't believe that the client will not want to spend the money on the new boiler. Thats why I said to change the vaporstat to a pressuretrol as a temporary alternative.
Right now only the 2nd. floor won't get hot at the same time as the others. That's why I recommened balancing the system.

thanks

Unknown

uneven steam

I've writen to you guys before about working with the vent capicity chart and Lindharts book. I currently put together a new complete venting plan for the company I currently work for.The original problem:

It's a four story brownstone building. The 2nd floor rads would not get hot untill after all the other rads in the building got hot. After they got hot, the steam would suddenly shoot to the 2nd floor rads. The same thing would happen even with the rad vent and/or the radiator was removed. The work already done :

Snaked, cleaned, and flushed with water all the pipes and risers in the building down to the boiler room & the boiler. He cut holes in the ceiling to check the configuration of the pipes. This is a one pipe system. On the boiler there is a vaporstat working with a pressuretrol.

I've told him to change the vaporstat to a pressuretrol because vaporstats are for vapor systems not one-pipe. Installing the main vents in their proper locations with sizes, and gave him a new venting stratagy. He his still doubting that doing all this will solve the 2nd floor not getting hot. I am confident that doing all this will, given all the information. I told him that I am putting faith in everything that I've read and studied because I've done this before and never had a problem.

The boiler is 30 years old and 350 sq. ft. Total house EDR needs a 500 sq.ft boiler.

Thanks again guys !

Al Letellier_15

steam balance

Your last sentence kind of puts it in a nutshell....a 350 sq. st. boiler will never evenly heat 500EDR !!!
Why did you go through all the trouble of snaking and flushing mains ????? Maybe it needed doing, but.....

Unknown

why ?

my understanding is that the under sized boiler will work just not efficently. i also don't think (although I'm not an expert) that the boiler size would make a difference when the first, third and fourth floor rads are getting hot but not the second floor. we cant even get steam out of the valve with the rad removed untill the other rads on the same riser are completly hot. thanks for any input to help me solve and/or understand what could be going on here.

Long Beach Ed

If the boiler is too small...

... it ain't happening.

Depending on the temperature of the radiators, this sorry thing may not put out enough steam to keep up with the condensation. Then radiators simply will not heat.

The steam will take the path of least friction and resistance. Whatever amount of steam you have is choosing to avoid the second floor radiators. They are either venting slowly or have a more complex piping arrangement.

Put that Vaporstat back on -- it shouldn't be the problem.

You'll have to talk to the boiler manufacturer, but see if you can get any more capacity out of that boiler by overfiring it. Some boilers can be overfired 15%, but even that probably woun't help much.

The only sure way to fix this is to remove radiators until you reach the proper boiler capacity.

No matter what you do, with a boiler that much undersized, you're going to have BIG distribution problems.

Long Beach Ed

JK_3

thanks the only reason I was thinking of changing the vaporstat was because Honeywell told me that vaporstat are exclusive to vapor systems. They said the only way to set a vaporstat on a one-pipe system was to wait for a cold day and play around with it.

thanks

JK_3

Also the radiator that isn't heating is on the same riser as the other floors.. The pipes were exposed and the 2nd floor rads are piped the same way as the rest on the other floors. And with the valve and radiator removed, the problem persists. The sudden rush of steam to the 2nd. floor only occures after the other floors get hot.

thanks

Unknown

The only other thing that I can think of is that there must be a part of that of 2nd. floor supply pipe that not clogged all the way, but clean enough to allow water & a snake to go through it. There must be a small part that has compacted solid scale in it. This would cause the riser to be the path of least resistance.The steam doesn't go to the 2nd floor until that supply pipe becomes the path of least resistance.However, before you agree with me....

There is a main on the other side doing the same exact thing on another riser. Is it that likely that a spot in the pipe for both sides could be doing this on the 2nd. floor ?

thanks

rob brown

kc, listen to what al and ed are saying to you. you could test this theory by closing off(completly) a few radiators, preferably from risers that dont serve your hard to heat rads. you now have made the system "smaller" and if the open rads start to heat, then your probobly undersized. insulating all steam pipes will gain you back some edr, but it might not be enough. rb

gerry gill

how the heck would honeywell

know if a vaporstat would work or not on a one pipe steam system??? to them its just a switch...that is what it is after all..its not like they invented the darn thing..they bought out ''absolute con-tac-tor company'' to get it..all those guys can tell you is its for ounces...bet it won't matter if its on or not cause your way undersized and won't build pressure anyways, not at all..

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Long Beach Ed

Aaaahhhh!

Forget this business about pipes being clogged.

Nothing's clogged. Steam's been cleaning 'em out for 90 years. Put your snake and hose away. This ain't a sewer.

Read what we told you.

When there isn't enough steam, it will only go to the easiest places. That may mean it goes straight at a Tee instead of taking the turn.

Long Beach Ed

Boilerpro_3

That's what I used to think!

> Forget this business about pipes being clogged.

> Nothing's clogged. Steam's been cleaning 'em out

> for 90 years. Put your snake and hose away.

> This ain't a sewer.

>

> Read what we told you.

> When there isn't enough steam, it will only go to

> the easiest places. That may mean it goes

> straight at a Tee instead of taking the turn.

> Long Beach Ed

Boilerpro_3

That's what I used to think! until 2 weeks ago

I converted a screwed up one pipe steam convector system to hot water and couldn't get one convector to heat. Pulled the supply piping apart and it was plugged solid with rust. The sytem had been banging like made probably since they pulled out the rads and put in the convectors, so I expect the junk broken loose over the years got trapped in this spot.

Boilerpro

Boilerpro_3

I have seen several undersized boiler one pipe systems

and with proper balancing they are heating efficiently and comfortably. The main key is just like the Dead Men said. Big vents on the steam mains so steam will want to head to the end of the mains first and very small adjustable vents on the rads to meter the air out so the steam can be metered in. I suspect that an undersized steam boiler will act alot like a banked coal fire in the original boiler. Maybe on your system, since the steam vapor is lighter than air it is floating to the top of the system and then working its way down...just like when a one pipe radiator fills with steam. Top first, then works its way down to the bottom. Think of the system as just on giant radiator.
I usually set my adjustable vents at no larger than 3 when balancing these type of systems. And definitely get the pipng insulated, as it should be.

Boilerpro

Boilerpro_3

I have seen several undersized boiler one pipe systems

and with proper balancing they are heating efficiently and comfortably. The main key is just like the Dead Men said. Big vents on the steam mains so steam will want to head to the end of the mains first and very small adjustable vents on the rads to meter the air out so the steam can be metered in. I suspect that an undersized steam boiler will act alot like a banked coal fire in the original boiler. Maybe on your system, since the steam vapor is lighter than air it is floating to the top of the system and then working its way down...just like when a one pipe radiator fills with steam. Top first, then works its way down to the bottom. Think of the system as just on giant radiator.
I usually set my adjustable vents at no larger than 3 when balancing these type of systems. And definitely get the pipng insulated, as it should be.

Boilerpro

Unknown

So it looks like I've been on the right track from the start when I told my Boss that balancing the rads and main vents in the building & changing the boiler to the proper sq. ft.will bring heat to all the rads per the cfm measurements I took.

I only lack the years and years of experience to fully know the symptoms of a system with an undersized boiler. an undersized steam boiler will act alot like a banked coal fire in the original boiler. Maybe on your system, since the steam vapor is lighter than air it is floating to the top of the system and then working its way down...just like when a one pipe radiator fills with steam. Top first, then works its way down to the bottom. (This makes sense to me.)

When there isn't enough steam, it will only go to the easiest places. That may mean it goes straight at a Tee instead of taking the turn. (This was one of my first thoughts.)

When I first took my measurements I figured out how many rads would need to be shut off to match the boilers sq. ft.
Now we will confirm this by testing this theory by closing off(completly) a few radiators, preferably from risers that dont serve the hard to heat rads.

A wise man once said,"Learn from the mistakes of others because you can't make them all yourself."

The wall is where a newbie like myself can learn from others field experiences because I won't experience it all myself.

DanHolohan

You are

on the right track.

DanHolohan

I've been in

20-story Manhattan apartment buildings, running on 8 ounces of pressure on a vaporstat.

Unknown

thank you Dan for that confirmation.

Unknown

I'm still kinda new to learning about steam boiler controls. I called Honeywell to learn more about them and that's what they said. Next time I'll know better...ask you guys. Now I just need to learn when a vaporstat would more applicable to a pressuretrol.