Calling All Masters of the Code...

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Have only dealt with it for commercial structures where the usual intent is to avoid the requirement. Once required, some provisions can seem overkill, but (at least in MO) they're hard, fast rules without variance. Fire department also requires that the systems be maintained to current code with new devices, controls, etc. No "grandfathering" as code changes require system changes and as far as I can tell, no variances.

I certainly believe that you're not trying to weasle out of anything. It just seems that your system may not be classifiable by the code and when that happens, the officials aren't sure what to do.

I did once win a battle with the fire department over occupancy calculations but I had to do it completely by the letter of the code.

Constantin

Life is interesting!

Prior to my vacation this winter, we obtained a temporary certificate of occupancy, temporary only because of the fire department that refused to sign off on the sprinkler system.

The reasons for a sign-off refusal have been changing over time, with no documentation, just verbal justifications. Eventually, I was invited to write a letter of appeal to the fire department, which I duly did. Said letter elected our first written response from the fire department, which continues to nix our current system on two grounds.

The first justification I have a lot of trouble with. The fire official declared that section 915.1 of Mass CMR780 requires a fire department connection. Yet, when I read that section it starts off with All required water fire extinguishing and standpipe systems shall be provided with a fire department connection in accordance with applicable NFPA standards…

Yet, our sprinkler system is not required and section 914.2 which deals with standpipe requirements does not require a standpipe for our usage group (R3) either, only for use group R1 and R2. Thus, if a standpipe and sprinkler system are optional for our usage group, then surely a fire department connection is optional as well, no?

Thus, the local Fire Deputy Chief leaves me no choice but to appeal to the Mass. Building Code Appeals Board for an interpretation that seems pretty clear cut.

While I am at it, I am also asking for a variance on the need for an external alarm, as I believe that a central alarm system monitored over redundant communications lines ought to exceed the intent of the code in section 906.5. However, if the appeals board officials nix my thinking, we'll simply fit the alarm and be done with it.

Making the Deputy Chief and his Lieutenant justify their leaps of logic is worth the $150 admission fee. Now where is that popcorn? :-P But seriously, it should be an interesting process. Any insights into what constitutes intent vs. the code itself? Our variance request definitely has a less to stand on as the code is written than the fire connection requirement...

Brad White_9

Have you contacted

Mr. Pillette?

Constantin

Mr. Pilette?

EDIT: I just found him online. Are you referring to Maurice Pilette, PE who serves on the on the Mass BBRS?

Brad White_9

Maurice Pillette

He is a fire protection engineer in Natick. He served or serves as the Chairman of the Board of Fire Prevention Regulations in MA. (I had the privledge of nominating him under Gov. Weld, so he has served for years.) He also now serves on the PE Board.

He LIVES for fire protection. His red truck has a license plate: "NFPA-13". Get the picture?

I do not have his number handy but he is in Natick. He is an inspector or at least plan reviewer for several towns and it may be worth an hour or two of his time to find out what is the appropriate thing to do.

If Maurice does not know, maybe God does. I suspect if God does not know, he asks Maurice, but that might be blasphemy. So be it...

Good luck!

Constantin

I will try and contact him...

... thank you very much, that seems like a very promising lead to follow. In the meantime, I have to continue pushing my appeal forward as I am running out of time to file it. Thanks again!

Brad White_9

One and the same

How many could there be? One and only...

Constantin

Thanks Brad!

I even found a telephone number... they're not at work yet, but sometime today they will be... I hope. Thanks again.

jackchips_2

I knew

you two would eventually hook up and your exchange is what I expected.

It is a pleasure, most of the time -:), reading both of you on this site. It will be interesting the first time you disagree on a subject but then maybe that won't happen.

Good luck Con, and keep us posted. As a former plumbing inspector, these issues just drive me nuts. Where is the common sense?

Jack

ed wallace

appeal

come on jack there is no common sense in the peoples republic of cambridge constintine has gone way beyond what the fire codes require for his house if he loses the appeal most likely the nieghborhood group and the historical society will be up in arms about the stand pipe and big red alarm bell on his house

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Brad White_9

Thanks, Jack

One of these days we will meet and tell Roger stories...
I do not know if Constantin nor I will disagree (no one does on everything). But my powers of persuasion may be put to the test.

Thus far, whenever folks are right, I agree with them

Brad White_9

Did not know it was the P.R.C., Ed

Hope Constantin is not in for a stint in a re-education camp.

Constantin

Thanks guys,

Yet another thing to look forward to. Cold showers, gruel, and many hours in solitary confinement reciting: "thou shall not question a code official!". Perhaps I'm too inspired by "Papillon"!

It's not that bad, really, in the PRC considering the support that we have gotten from various city departments to date. But it would be fun to pit the historical commission vs. the fire department if a fire dept. connection and/or a external alarm bell is required.

Speaking of which, I think I'll request the board also rule on the location of the bell in light of the historical considerations. I don't want to give the local officials any wiggle room when it comes to capricious edicts.

Dave DeFord_3

What is your redundant communication..

Is it a land line phone backed up by a cell phone, two phone lines, land line and VOIP? I'm just wondering how you would get completely redundant communication to a home.

Constantin

Landline and Radio...

... makes for a very hard-to-defeat combination, and a much better solution to alerting the fire dpeartment than an external alarm that may or may not convince a neighbor to call the fire department if he/she can even figure out what the external alarm means.

ed wallace

code

constintin where is the nearest fire hydrant to your house?

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Plumdog_2

I'll bet when they send you

over to Nurse Ratchet for an icewater enema you will install the standpipe without further complaint.

Brad White_27

Ed must be

out walking his dog....

Constantin

Fire Hydrants...and an update

... the fire hydrant closest to the house is about 80' away. Pretty close.

The appeals are ready, with quintupilate copies, certified mail receipts, etc. The only thing left is getting the notary public seals in place. Once that is accomplished, they're off to the races.

I spoke to a top MA code official/interpreter yesterday who seemed to think that our alarm system as installed exceeds the intent of the external alarm bell/gong/whatever. So, I remain cautiously optimistic.

Brad White_27

Constantin

Write me off-line if you like. Would like to hear how you made out and the path you took. Sounds like a nice project, long-time coming...


Brad

Anthony Menafro

Fire code

Constantin, As far as codes go, if you don't need something (sprinkler system) and decide to provide it anyway,you will be subject to the full compliance of the code. It's a shame that you tried to provide extra protection for your bldg. and are being harassed for going the extra yard. This is why people try to do things without permits. The very professionals who work under the letter of the law are the same ones who get hung by it. Good luck, and keep up the "Right and Legal" work in the future.

Anthony Menafro

Constantin

Thanks for the encouragement!

Anthony,
We're doing all we can to meet all the requirements and intents of the code. The controversy circles around what the code calls for, which is where I and the local Deputy Fire Chief diverge in our views.

When I read a conditional statement along the lines of: "All required sprinkler and standpipe systems require a fire department connection..." and my home does not require a standpipe nor a sprinkler system, that the connection is optional as well. My sprinkler system installer, who is licensed in MA, has done many installs here, etc., agrees.

As far as the external alarm is concerned, I am fighting this one on principle as well. If I have an alarm system that far exceeds the intent of the code then that should satisfy the local code officials even if it does not meet the blueprint in the code.

The appeal and the cheque is in the mail. No matter how this turns out, I have plenty of material to raise a small stink in city hall about what I consider to be intentional official misconduct. Raising these sorts of issues, even if justified, in the final inspection phase after approving the plans, 2 rough inspections, etc. is simply unacceptable.

Dave DeFord_3

Sounds Good

> ... makes for a very hard-to-defeat combination,

> and a much better solution to alerting the fire

> dpeartment than an external alarm that may or may

> not convince a neighbor to call the fire

> department if he/she can even figure out what the

> external alarm means.

Dave DeFord_3

Sounds Good

I like the part radio part. I have heard of folks that think they have a redundant system with land line and cell phone but the land line and the cell tower go through the same phone switch. If the switch or its connection to the phone company fails the redundancy disappears. It only takes one guy on a backhoe. I like your system as it does not appear to have a single point of failure.

Paul Pollets

Constantin...

are you using the Wirsbo AquaSafe potable sprinkler system? Or conventional?

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hr

\"Breaking rocks in the

hot sun, I fought the law and the law won, I fought the law and the law won"

Some here may remember that old Bobby Fuller tune, covered nicely, recently by Green Day

I understand, and agree with you opinion. Good luck with your battle.

hot rod

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jackchips_2

Let's hope

he never sings:

"I shot the inspector but I did not shoot the assistant!"

Good luck Con.

Constantin

Conventional NFPA-13D compliant stuff...

... blazemaster piping, concealed sprinkler heads, and the rest.

Nothing ground-shaking really. But finding a residential fire sprinkler installer in MA was a birth, as you may recall. We're really fortunate to have someone as enthusiastic and knowledgeable as Steve on our team.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Required...

Is an inclusive term in this case.

It encompasses both necessity and requirements of the classification.

While you have no required need, your construction principally meets the class that includes a standpipe, outdoor bell and regular inspection.

The inspection requirements are clear in their necessity of a standpipe and outdoor bell on such systems. You will be held to all of the requirements of the class.

Reclassification will be required yet a suitable existing class cannot be found.

Fire codes are not varied, they are changed.

For your system to be active, I suspect it will have to fulfill all requirements of the class.

Constantin

Hi Mike!

Thanks for the feedback, you presumably deal a lot more with this than I do.

My read of the intent of the code-writers is that they wanted to require a fire department connection on all sprinkler and/or standpipe systems, then their sentence would not have included the first "required" as what I construe to be a conditional statement. Instead, the code would have read: "All sprinkler and standpipe systems shall be fitted with a fire dept. connection".

Look, I am not trying to weasel myself out of my obligations, I am happy to meet what the code intends. And yearly inspections by the sprinkler company are called for, or my insurance co. will not give me the discount for the sprinkler system. The alarm system monitors itself for internal faults and has yearly service calls also.

My guess is that given the dismal initial performance of the new local inspector (demanding a NFPA-13R construction, etc.) I think this performance on the part of the FD has more to do with creating the appearance of them having found something which justifies the fuss.