It is about respect.......

Tom_35

You're right on Michael. We don't sell boxes where the item is taken out and then plugged in (like a TV). Our job is to take the parts that are in boxes, assemble them into a correctly installed system.

The customer has to see the value of what you do, or they will be looking at taking the low bid. We do very little new construction work since the builder is usually the contact and he certainly doesn't see value---he sees the bottom dollar. 95% of our work has us in contact with the homeowner or business owner---and that gives us the opportunity to sell our company.

Tom Atchley

John Ruhnke

It is about respect

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for all the great advice in the new prejuduce thread. I want to point out that the main purpose of what I wrote is not the financial condition that I am in but it is about Respect.

WE deserve a lot more respect then we are getting. I wanted people to think. The trades are a choice for the born to build. The trades are best learned through field work, networking with other technical experts and attending seminars from someone with vast experience and knowledge in certain areas. College is to slow to pick up on the technical edge. The edge or cutting edge is the point at which new technology gets advanced. When you know everything there is to know about a narrow area. When you think of improvements beyond what exists and try them and then go on to network and teach it to others. That is how technology best moves forward. For some thing to be put in a college text book is often at least ten years old. In technology that is often past prime. College is not always the best place to learn. Don't get me wrong we need college people too. My friend Bob is very good with complex mathimatics. I am sure that he could of only learned this through extensive college courses and study. Bob had trouble applying these formulas to anything really useful though. Working with me, Bob and I can acomplish a lot. Together we make a good team. In some things I am smarter then him, in some things he is smarter then me. I have better 3d vision then he does. He is better with the formulas.

WE AS TRADES PEOPLE ARE EQUALS WITH COLLEGE FOLK!!!!!!!!! We should accept nothing less. We should accept no less of a title, no less pay and we should have equal oportunity provided to us for success.

If this problem is not addressed and fixed it will be the down fall of America. Some of our greatest acheveiments came from people who learned through field work or the trades.

Promotion needs to be done based on abilities and accomplishments and not on what school or degree that you have taken. I feel that most people have this deep desire to try and make things better for their kids. The easiest and best way is by sending them to the best schools. People are creating a kind of class society.

The purpose of education is to make one self more capable of improving the system or systems weather the system is business art or technology. The purpose of education is not to provide a better life for your kids.

We as a country need to focus more on the reality of what an education is for. If we all do that then I think we will begin to see the importance to promote other avenues of education.

John Ruhnke

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Wayco Wayne_2

Hey John

Have you taught any classes yourself? If not, it may be something for you to consider. Down here in MD/Wash DC there is interest in Hydronics but relatively few avenues of education. I teach a night class for ACCA one Semester a year of basic Hydronics as part of a 4 year journeymans course. I get feedback all the time of technicians and other interested parties wanting to sit in on my class. I even had a call asking if I would consider putting on an independent class for one or two nights. It's something I am thinking about doing. (for great financial gain of course). I don't think we can wait for colleges to catch up to a trade that is moving as fast as the radiant/hydronics field is moving. As far as respect, if people are intersted enough in paying me to have fun doing what I do, that is enough respect for me. WW

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Long Beach Ed

Keep thing in perspective...

John,

Remember that more today than ever, college is big business. It is a consumer product in itself which is promoted like any other product. Since most tuition in this county is paid by the governmnet, and since college keeps kids out of the workforce for another few years, it is promoted more and more for economic and social purposes besides its education value.

When all things are considered, an individual usually finds the station in life that he deserves. An excellent mechanic, like an excellent engineer will both command the same wages. Either one has the prospect of founding his own business, either one has the prospect of making lots of money with his later investments.

The trades lack the public relations push of the colleges, and unfortunately many people only know what they are told by the media.

Nobody in the real world, that is nobody who really does anything in this country ever looks down the nose either financially or academically at a skilled tradesman.

Don't fall for the media's portrayal of your Carhart-wearing bothers.

Long Beach Ed

Jim_47

Respect

John, Your writing on respect that tradespeople or craftsmen deserve makes me think back years ago when during a family gathering I heard several family members almost snicker at our trades. Nurses paramedics etc are "professionals". I ask what makes you more of a professional than me? The answer they thought was simple," If we make a mistake as a health care professional, we can harm, cripple, mame or kill someone". I got a good laugh, I said that I must be an oil heating professional. Except I must be a higher grade than you. They looked at me and kinda laughed. I said, " OK then if killing or maming someone makes you a proffesional then I can do an entire school or apartment complex if I do not have the correct training or if I make a mistake".
Funny thing is they have never spoke of their proffesion again in front of me. They do talk about their jobs though.
I guess I made my point.
BTW, I have just bought my 4th income home and I am presently planning my spring vacation. They have not been away for years. I feel I am adequately compensated for my efforts.

helpingothershelpthemselves_2

Trades and Technicians

I instruct oil burner service and hydronics at Boces (Board of Cooperative Educational Services)here on the Isle of Long (Dan's wonderful way of saying Long Island ) .
We have seen a constant and increased influx of students ranging from young to mature (politically correctiveness ? ) and from all walks of life . It is exciting to see the changes and new faces entering our field for the purpose of keeping people comfortable and safe. My hopes are always that we do recieve the respect we all deserve for our knowledge and ability .
Every semester and course I instruct is becoming standing room only and we have added more sections and chairs to accomodate for the increased enrollment. I take this as a great and positive sign that there is much more interest in becoming qualified , well trained and respected techicians than we have seen in the past.

I relay to each student that respect is earned and that they are earning it every day by dedicating themselves to learning and becoming the very best they can be .

An employee of mine (and former student)told me of a saying his dad had instilled in him . "Those who know why, will be master of those who know how " . This I try to instill in each and every student that dedicates his time and efforts to be the very best he or she can be .

Thank You ,
Ken Resnick

John Ruhnke

Corperate World...........

Entreprenuers are unique in that they have noone above to answer to. They are in direct control of company performance and succeed based on that. You don't need college to succeed as an entreprenuer. If you have college it won't be enough, you still need to get a field education on top of it or you won't succeed.

The corperate world is different. If you work for a large corperation you will be given less oportunities then if you went to college. They actually justify punishing you. They don't care if you have raw talent and can do more then the college graduate. A good example is this black guy. I forget his name. He apprenticed in the medical field under a great suregen. He couldn't get into a good medical school back in the 50's because he was black. He never went to college. Together the two of them invented heart transplants and revolutionized the medical field. The Black Doctor and the Mentor became two of the best surgens in America at the time. The Black Doctor was never considered a Doctor. He was always called a technician and received horible pay. The other Doctors treated him like dirt until they realized that he was the only one capable of performing the more difecult surgeries. Finally they realized that patients would stand a much better chance of survival if the Black Doctor performed the operation. They let him perform the operation only with a Doctor standing behind him. They claimed to the press that the real doctor was supervising and the black technician was mearly following instruction. The oposite was true. The real doctor behind the black doctor never had a clue as to how to do the operation ans was watching to try and learn the techniques. The Black Doctor went on to teach other surgens his techniques at a college. Finally when the Black Doctor was old and near retirement they gave him an honory Doctorite.

John Ruhnke

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JoeV

It is all made up

> John, Your writing on respect that tradespeople

> or craftsmen deserve makes me think back years

> ago when during a family gathering I heard

> several family members almost snicker at our

> trades. Nurses paramedics etc are

> "professionals". I ask what makes you more of a

> professional than me? The answer they thought was

> simple," If we make a mistake as a health care

> professional, we can harm, cripple, mame or kill

> someone". I got a good laugh, I said that I must

> be an oil heating professional. Except I must be

> a higher grade than you. They looked at me and

> kinda laughed. I said, " OK then if killing or

> maming someone makes you a proffesional then I

> can do an entire school or apartment complex if I

> do not have the correct training or if I make a

> mistake". Funny thing is they have never spoke

> of their proffesion again in front of me. They do

> talk about their jobs though. I guess I made my

> point. BTW, I have just bought my 4th income

> home and I am presently planning my spring

> vacation. They have not been away for years. I

> feel I am adequately compensated for my efforts.



You could drive yourself crazy worrying about what kind of respect you deserve. It's a trap that, if nothing else, projects a lack of self esteem.

Most of my life as a college educated aircraft mechanic with a B.S. in Aerospace electronics and aircraft maintenance , I could sign off an auotland system that can place a wide body aircraft traveling 150+mph on the runway in a 50 X 75 box with no pilot input. The plane would even come to a complete stop on its own. But despite that, I was always a "grease monkey". It drove my wife batty.

But, I was happy. Getting paid to do what you love is a blessing. Everything else is made up. I believe people who get a lot of respect envy people who are happy at work.

JoeV

It is all made up

You could drive yourself crazy worrying about what kind of respect you deserve. It's a trap that, if nothing else, projects a lack of self esteem.

Most of my life as a college educated aircraft mechanic with a B.S. in Aerospace electronics and aircraft maintenance , I could sign off an auotland system that can place a wide body aircraft traveling 150+mph on the runway in a 50 X 75 box with no pilot input. The plane would even come to a complete stop on its own. But despite that, I was always a "grease monkey". It drove my wife batty.

But, I was happy. Getting paid to do what you love is a blessing. Everything else is made up. I believe people who get a lot of respect envy people who are happy at work.

jp_2

earn it!

my brother just got screwed by a "heating pro". the guy put 5/8 tubing 16 inches on center(staple up), aluminium flashing for 'looks'. detroit area.

2 floors, 1st floor tile(sandwiched in durrock, 6 inch centers) and the other carpet(staple up-16 inch centers), all on one zone. the quote called for two zones. 'heating pro' said yah, the orginal house on one zone, the new two story addition on another zone.
staple up area does not get very warm and this is an extremely mild winter.

then he tells my brother "how dare you question me, I have 30 yrs experience"

I worked on a job once where you could smell the alcohol before the plumbers.

I questioned an electrician on a code issue and he blew up! acused me of being 'buddies' with the electrical inspector because I called and asked the inspector a code question....though I had a technical degree in electronics I could not question him on anything or he would get huffy....

this is why the trades do not always look good!

earn the respect, don't demand it, you'll get nothing!

by the way, I totally disagree, its not about respect, nothing close. its about enjoying your working and enjoying life....

jerry scharf_3

guilt by association

John,

I know this frustrates you a great deal. The best people on this site, which I include you among, are worthy of respect in any venue.

Unfortunately, you are part of a group that does not demand respect and professionalism of it's own. The legion of poor tradespeople, who leave a wake of dissatisfied customers, sow the seeds of disrespect that you harvest. jp's post below is a perfect example of that.

I know what I'm after and have still gotten my share of poor tradespeople. At least I know it quickly and fix the situation one way or the other.

Doctors are certainly not perfect, but they have a lot of respect. You are required to maintain educational levels to keep your license. These educational things are shifting from the boondogles of yore to required areas of training. You are exepected to read the journals, and the vast majority of doctors do read several extremely technical journals each month. Specialists read much more, always evaluating new treatment methods and existing ones.

There is an active board to try to keep the level high. Things slip through, and those make the news. The same kind of things would never make any news with heating contractors, because quaret?half? the people doing work in the field would qualify to be booted by medical license standards.

Your lot is more like one of teachers. These people now usually have masters degrees or are working toward them. They require a great deal of energy and wisdom beyond what is taught, and it requires at least a few years of mentoring to reach skill in the field. Yet somehow people sem to think that teachers don't deserve a level of respect that an engineer, doctor, lawyer or businessperson get. Is it because it's a female dominated field? Is it because people think they can do this themselves if they wanted to take the time? Teachers have been on a campaign for a decade to change the perception of teachers, and it is working in California. Police also face the fact that people have no idea how trained they are...

When a heating person walks in with few tools beyond what you can buy at Home Depot, doesn't demonstrate the skill or understanding of the system, is sloppy and unprofessional, what do you want the customer to think? That person doesn't respect themself, the field or the customer. And yet they almost always continue to find ways to work in the field.

Being brutally honest, you either have to find a way to chop at least the bottom 20% of the people in the field, or find a way to build a new concept that clearly differentiates the top 20%. Training, per review, levels of professionalism...

jerry

tom_49

respect

> my brother just got screwed by a "heating pro".

> the guy put 5/8 tubing 16 inches on center(staple

> up), aluminium flashing for 'looks'. detroit

> area.

>

> 2 floors, 1st floor tile(sandwiched in

> durrock, 6 inch centers) and the other

> carpet(staple up-16 inch centers), all on one

> zone. the quote called for two zones. 'heating

> pro' said yah, the orginal house on one zone, the

> new two story addition on another zone. staple

> up area does not get very warm and this is an

> extremely mild winter.

>

> then he tells my

> brother "how dare you question me, I have 30 yrs

> experience"

>

> I worked on a job once where you

> could smell the alcohol before the plumbers.

> I questioned an electrician on a code issue and

> he blew up! acused me of being 'buddies' with the

> electrical inspector because I called and asked

> the inspector a code question....though I had a

> technical degree in electronics I could not

> question him on anything or he would get

> huffy....

>

> this is why the trades do not always

> look good!

>

> earn the respect, don't demand

> it, you'll get nothing!

>

> by the way, I totally

> disagree, its not about respect, nothing close.

> its about enjoying your working and enjoying

> life....

tom_49

respect

> my brother just got screwed by a "heating pro".

> the guy put 5/8 tubing 16 inches on center(staple

> up), aluminium flashing for 'looks'. detroit

> area.

>

> 2 floors, 1st floor tile(sandwiched in

> durrock, 6 inch centers) and the other

> carpet(staple up-16 inch centers), all on one

> zone. the quote called for two zones. 'heating

> pro' said yah, the orginal house on one zone, the

> new two story addition on another zone. staple

> up area does not get very warm and this is an

> extremely mild winter.

>

> then he tells my

> brother "how dare you question me, I have 30 yrs

> experience"

>

> I worked on a job once where you

> could smell the alcohol before the plumbers.

> I questioned an electrician on a code issue and

> he blew up! acused me of being 'buddies' with the

> electrical inspector because I called and asked

> the inspector a code question....though I had a

> technical degree in electronics I could not

> question him on anything or he would get

> huffy....

>

> this is why the trades do not always

> look good!

>

> earn the respect, don't demand

> it, you'll get nothing!

>

> by the way, I totally

> disagree, its not about respect, nothing close.

> its about enjoying your working and enjoying

> life....

Uni R

A few thoughts...

John,

A few thoughts here...

Respect is a gift. Treat yourself and other worthy people to it. It's yours to give. If you think that you deserve it from someone you are interacting and they aren't the gift giving kind, just take what they could have had and reward yourself with it. :-)

I find it funny that you use physicians (I hate using the term doctor because the original meaning of doctor is teacher) in your example. While for the most part they do need 2 years of college/university before they can get into med school, their actual degree is very much a technical degree. They combine a technical degree with doing apprentice work and then finally they can either run their own business or work for someone else. Then they belong to a guild that purposely keeps the number of licensed technicians down so that they can demand better rates. Sounds like they understand the trades very well.

BTW, entrepreneurs have to answer to many stakeholders, and the most successful ones are often their own worst bosses.

I wouldn't get hung up on formal definitions of education. A classical education was never meant to help you make a living, it was meant to help see living in a different way (and I don't mean like the 60's). That has since changed and the most sought after degrees are all quite technical in nature now.

Personally, I save my ultimate level of respect for elementary school teachers. How anyone can deal with a pack of semi-feral grade 1 kids without riot gear or restraint devices is totally beyond me. How they manage to get the respect (and attention) of their students is something that I'd love to learn. And while they don't get their hands dirty like some of those very highly paid plumbers, heating contractors, physicians and dentists, they do get summers off. I'm so jealous!!!

tom_49

respect

John,
Professional respect is earned not demanded, If you are very good at what you do you will be professionally respected by your customers and peers.

You gotta stop worrying about this college thing, get over it, it isnt going to change. I didnt go to college and I probably make more $$ than most of my friends who did. ( and I have the time to sit in my living rm. at 1:00 in the afternoon to type this). Be happy with who you are. If your not, than any letters after your name aint gonna help you.

I hate to say it, but look at alot of the threads here, they talk about hack contractors doing all sorts of various hackery on customers homes and businesses. 1/2 the contractors I see on the jobs Im on, I wouldnt let them build me a dog house. Is it any wonder why so many people have a negative view of trades? Of course theres tons of excellent trades people, its all the hacks that make us all look bad.

Cheer up, you could be in Iraq.

John Ruhnke

Hacks and the low bidder.....

A lot of people that go into the trades should have never been there in the first place. The trades get all of the rejects. The bottum half of the trades people are rejects. These are people that are not born to build but people who lack the discipline or smarts to succeed at college or something else. College is not a option so they try the trades. They don't belong in the trades. They bid really low on the job and then take many short cuts to get the job done. They never make any money. They give you a tail light gaurentee. They are there and some of society think that is where they belong. So that is what you get, crappy trades people. Those people would better serve the comunity in a profesion that is not as important, but many of these easier jobs require college. So we get stuck with them.

One easy solution, DONT HIRE THE LOW BALL BIDDER!!!

Check the Trades person to see if he has qualifications, certifications,has taken seminars, visits trades shows and such. A real trades person is enthusiastic about his career. A real trades person is smart and can make you very comfortable.They can save your life from deadly disease and carbon monoxide. The work will be neat, they are clean and it is strong and sturdy built to last a lifetime. When you see the work you go WOW!! because it is a work of art.

We need more smart people choosing the trades. Many born to build people go off to college because they don't see a future in the trades. We need them!!

John Ruhnke

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John Ruhnke

Teachers.............

Teachers earn more then a journey man plumber or heating technician. They also get the summers off.

JR

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Brian (Tankless)

No they don't.

Not in S.W. Louisiana they don't.

My ex has three degrees. Philosophy, English Lit', and a teaching degree, and working on an English Lit' Masters right now, and doesn't make anywhere near what a master plumber makes.

An M plumber won't get out of bed for less than 55K a year around here.

If you've got 23,000 bucks to spend on a coach/mentor, to help you develope your sense of self, you've got more money than sense.

I personally don't work for folk who don't respect me, actually I will, but they'll pay for it.

BTW, I have 3 yrs of college, no degree. But am I a professional? you bet I am, and I charge accordingly.

I hope it all works out.

G'night.

Mike Thomas_2

Confusion

Some people confuse "respect" with money. They think that if people "respect" them, they will pay them more. Doesn't work that way. People pay for perceived value. If they think it is worth more, they will pay more. The other factor is the "if they like you" factor. If you have to go out and buy a new car, and your find the same car at the same price at two different places, where do you go buy it? From the guy you like the best. If you have got to spend money, why not at least give it to someone you like! Many business owners think that all they have to do is sell a better product, or sell it at a better price, but they forget to sell themself.

Does your office have all your diplomas, certificates, any piece of paper that says you know something framed and hanging on the wall? Do you have framed thank you letters from customers? Do you have pictures of your best installs posted? Do you have a book with pictures of installs and equipment? Do you keep your trucks clean and in good repair? Do you have clean uniforms for you and your techinicians? Does everyone in your organization carry business cards?

Sell yourself, they sell your product or service. Then you will get respect, and if you can learn how to run a business, they money will follow.

John Ruhnke

Its who you learn from that counts.........

Tankless,

You question spending 23 G's on an education? How much did you spend for the three years of college?

I researched the Building Services Institute. They are the right business format for me. I need to expand my company. Expansion is very dangerous. 9 out of ten business's fail in the first 10 years. I have been around for more then 15. You want to listen to the 10% that have made it and out of that 10% maybe only 5% are realy truely successful. So the task is to seek out the best in the business and learn from them. Think about it. If you do 1 million in sales on your own at 2% profit that is $20,000 that you will be making, but if you hire the best coaches and trainers available and earn 10% on that 1 million then you have $100,000 in profit. Take the $100g's - $23g's = $77,000, thats $57,000 more earned with the business coaches then without. The big question you have to ask yourself is can you afford not to do it? Can you afford to leave that $57,000.00 behind? I know I can't. That is why I said that I cannot afford not to do it. My mortgage payment is now more then most people earn in a year. Do you think I am going to risk losing my house by guessing at the best way to expand my business or do you think I am going to learn from the Pro's which tried and true methods work best?

JR

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Jim_47

Our Trade

Does it matter to Mr/Mrs customer that I work in a dank dark hole in their house. I've had customers tell me, "it's down their, I don't do basements". Was in one basement last Saturday and when I opened the outside bulk head door I could see why they might not like it down there. Over 5 snake skins curled up on the steps! We work in some poor working conditions. In the military they called it hazardous duty pay. What about that nice clean uniform I leave here each morning in. By the end of the day, and sometimes 2 uniform shirts later, I could look like a soot monster. Why so dirty? Because the acidemic (sp?) doesn't put any value in having a clean running heating appliance. Only calls, (as one guy here phrased it), the grease monkey, when the thing doesn't keep him warm.
I thank all my customers for the new van they are purchasing for me, and for paying my son's tuition, and for this nice computer and, and and......, should we go on? Do what you want, do it right, give value to your customers, Fire the loads, and the money will be there.

hr

It sounds like

first off you need some budget help. Do you know what it costs you to float the boat on a monthly or yearly basis.

I'm talking about both your company and personal expenses.

You need to define these numbers and build your company around that nut. Guess what, it may or may not pencil out for you!

Sounds like you are spending as much, or more, than your company generates??

Contact Ellen, she offers a free 1/2 hour phone consult. you need to get a questionnaire from her, fill it and fax it back and set an appointment.

Before you start shelling out more bucks, define you goals, path, and options for reaching them.

The Numbers Cruncher is also an excellent, inexpensive program for getting some hard data together. www.barebonesbiz.com for some help

hot rod

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helpingothershelpthemselves_2

Not only am I an instructor but also a licensed master plumber and I have never had a summer off from either responsibility.

JoeV

You are right.

I have a theory. 1 third of all trades people are enthusiastic, smart, and can make their jobs look easy and attractive.

The other two thirds thought the job looked easy, try to do it but fail which makes the first third stuck in a stereotype. It's a case where there are only a few GOOD apples.

I'm on the industrial side of things and I see it wherever I go.

clammy

respect

Respect i always thought that it was some thing you earned .Each day and each person you come in contact with if that's what you are about .Me personally don't really care about getting or feeling respect from anyone i could care less the only one that i have to respect is myself ,my family ,friends (social and working )other then that i could really care .One of the most important things is to some times try to be the witness to yourself and your actions ,most of the time it can be a real eye opener and the answer to why i don't feel like i'm respected or why am i respected .And please remenber this is coming from a guy who most think is out of his mind ,uncontrolable and lots of other bad things but bottom line is those who know me respect me because they truely know me and my heart while the others don't even have a clue or know my real name funny yeah respect it comes from inside not from some one Bs ing you to believe they feel that way .Don,t look outward for it you will never find it like every thing in life some times being the mirror only shows the faults with in yourself and the faults in other but just remenber we are all the same there are no differences just different levels of awareness peace and good karma clammy