Vapor Steam System - Air Problems

Steamhead (in transit)

where the supply valves all have orifices and ythe pressure is kept low to keep steam out of the dry retutn --- or the radiator return fittings have water seals or check valves in them.

Take some pics of some radiators, also tell us if you can see any trademarks or other info on original hand valves and return fittings. Also, some pics of the boiler area including aby devices in the piping around the boiler.

One way or another we will ID this system.

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Micahel Monahan

vapor heat - air balancing problems

I installed a new gas fired replacement steam boiler on a 1920 vapor system in Westchester NY>

I am having problems getting the air out of the system.

System has one main air vent. I replace this with one Hoffman number 75.

Right side of house heated. Left side is air bound.

I installed a vapor stat set at 8oz high 4 oz low.

System shuts off on pressure.

I split dry return at ceiling over boiler and dropped return separately creating a main vent for the left and right side of house.

Now middle of house and one room at far left has poor heat.

Question. Has anyone solved a similar problem with a small vacuum air pump and if so what make and or model.

Thanks,
Mike

Long Beach Ed

Airbound

Mike,

If it shuts off on pressure with cold radiators, the steam isn't getting to the radiators. Probably because the air isn't getting out of them. You need vents. When were they last changed, when Hoover was president? Are you sure the piping to those cold radiators is properly sized, pitched right and insulated?

The ends of both mains should be vented as should all the radiators.

There are systems with vacuum pumps, but you have a system that should work fine without that. Vent the air out of the main and those radiators will heat.

If you can't cut and thread pipe to install the proper vents, find someone to do it. This will save you big money here and heat those cold rooms.

Long Beach Ed

John H.

vapor

Look at this page you may be heating to fast. Hope it helps.

www.bellgossett.com/Press/vacuum.html

Micahel Monahan

Ed,
Thanks for the feed back. The system is a two pipe vapor system with one main air vent. One side of the house is venting but not the other.


John,
Thanks for the link. I have read this one before. I installed the #75 vent and it vents just fine but, half the house is air bound.

Has anyone solved a similar problem using a small vacuum air pump?

Thanks,

Mike

clammy

air promblems

Went to help a plumber out a while back on a larger vapor vacume system ,vacume pump was long since gone ,the guy could not get steam to one whole wing of the home .We checked the mains ,the vents everything then finally i asked if i could see the rads guess what ? HO fired his live in handi man yeap days before the handi man being pissed off closed all the rad hand valves .We though the same thing but as dan,s book staes sometimes the cause of a promblem and the promblem are seldon in the same room be nosey get out of the boiler room look about .On another note by any chance did the boiler you installed have a lower water line then the original ?If so you may have lost a loop seal on supply drips and returns then steam pressurizes the return and you get no pressure difference and steam distrubtion into the system .Putting a vacume pump on it probably ain't the answer also check the rads that are hot if it's 2 pipe no air valves if they have them remove and plug that may be throwing your mains out of balance ask me how i know been there removed them .If worse comes to worse cut in a vent on the end of your cool supply main also did you check for a crossover trap on the supply near the end of the main piped into the dry return a bad trap ther will cause the same promblems peace and good luck clammy

Micahel Monahan

Thanks Clammy . This is a two pipe vapor system with out traps. The valves have disks. The boiler water line is the same as the old unit.
I am looking for help putting a samll vacuum pump on the dry return like a "PAUL" system.

Mike

clammy

michael

No traps on the rads then each return should drip below the boiler and wet reurns water line .If there is a return el on the rads check it for debere also check the supply hand valve .I really don't think a vacume pump will help you out if it doesn't vent even now it may be worse with the pump it probalby will do the same thing but in less time .Where there any crossover traps on the mains ?Uneven distrubution still kinda sounds like you lose a loop seal .Was this a new promblem or has it's always been like that i know the HO said it always worked before you where there right?Where there any supply drips on the main or any removed guys would remove them not knowing what they where there for amd just leave them plugged and last but not least are the mains insulated ?clammy

Micahel Monahan

Clammy,
This is an old coal fired vapor system where all the returns collect at the ceiling line and drop once. There is some insulation missing.

Michael

clammy

one drop

Well then you have either traps or small water seal type traps on the rads as i understand it .Pull one apart you may be amazed to see that on some (brommewell type) has a small u bend and on the top (inside ) there is a small hole that lets the air pass into that dry return to be vented they could be clogged also check your vaporstat that system ids low pressure like 4 ounces to maybe 12 that's the most regular pressuretrol is no good might be to high .Sounds like bad trap and no air venting because of no pressure differental between supply and returns .The best i can tell you is to look everything over again check for water seals ,bad rad traps . Peace and good luck clammy

tony p_2

Vapor systems

First, let me say this. I don't think you should assume the deadman who piped the system originally left out extra returns, vents, or vaccuum pumps. More than likely eveything you need is there, unless removed by one who didn't appreciate its function.

On an isolated radiator check the p-type trap (small hole inside may be plugged, access is provided to clean it). Also check the radiator valve. Some vapor valves have a rotating disc with small orifices that may also plug. (The orifices only let a measured quantity of steam thru, usually 80% of the radiators condensing ability). You have to remove the valve to clear the orifices from the bottom. Replacing a vapor valve with a steam valve may result in hammering by letting in too much steam.

You added a vent and split the return and things got better. Broomell, Veco and other vapor systems usually had only one vent in the system, and that was at the junction of the dry returns at the boiler. The vent was open to the atmosphere, or an open pipe exiting in the chimney flue by way of a ceiling mounted condenser. This may have been an 1 1/2inch pipe, and not two small vent orifices. Did you remove any near boiler piping that vented the returns? Vapor systems are very dependent upon removing the system air.

Use your detective skills rather than luck.