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How to tell if the price is right

Mad Dog_2
Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 6,715
Mad Dog

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  • Tom_69
    Tom_69 Member Posts: 2
    How to tell if the price is right

    I have received a price for a System 2000 made by Energy Kinetics. It sounds very high to me. It is for a new home installation. I am waiting on two other prices form plumbers that will use a cast iron system, and one other that is a System 2000 dealer. How do I know if it is a good price? From anyone.
  • clammy
    clammy Member Posts: 3,094
    well tom

    Well tom i have personally never used system 2000 i have my own reason but this is a high end oil fired unit with good eff # so it is not going to be cheapo and if the install is correct and a picture perfect job done by professinals who are and will service it in the future the price may not be out of line .Alot of jobs i quote the HO think i'm nuts but i give them the list of goods to be installed and photos of what my jobs look like when done when faced with other quotes and no materal lists or outline of componets to be replaced compared to my quote i win .When other companies start adding my componet list to there quote my price start to look much better .Don't start counting beans that a sure way not to get the job done properly just remenber the sweetening of a lower price is soon forgatten after the bitterness of poor quality .Do a apple to apple comparision and go with the guy with the best rep or really play it safe and use the find a professinal listing on this site all of these guys here are truely pros and the best of the best at the very least .Peace and good luck clammy ps check out buderus g115 oil fired it would truely be my choice over system 2000 but that's just me
    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating
  • Terry_14
    Terry_14 Member Posts: 209
    System 2000

    Over the past 4 years I have installed and serviced many boilers including the EK boilers.

    My Take " I like them". The combination of manager controls, Becket Gun and efficiency add up to a big plus for the home owner.

    As with any system, professional instalation done with pride, is the key to a warm comfortable home for years to come.

    That said I would ask about trained tec's, parts availability( what do they stock? ) Be sure a properly sized chimney is in place to protect against condensation in flue and ask to see an instalation.

    When compairing cost I recommend understanding the effeciancy ratings. The rating most of us understand relates to the efficiency of fuel oil burned. EK shines with another efficience, Heat transfer, or how well does the fuel burned turn into usable heat in your home.

    Honestly should my home be heated with a boiler and I could choose any one it would be an EK. Why keep 15 gallons of water at 180 f in a conventional boiler, when EK will raise it's 2.5 gallons to 180 F in about 90 seconds.

    My Dad always told me " Terry you can't buy your reputation. You have to earn it every day"

    Dad was right with EK 2000 my reputation will remain strong

    Terry
  • S Ebels
    S Ebels Member Posts: 2,322
    You know it's right when

    > I have received a price for a System 2000 made by

    > Energy Kinetics. It sounds very high to me. It is

    > for a new home installation. I am waiting on two

    > other prices form plumbers that will use a cast

    > iron system, and one other that is a System 2000

    > dealer. How do I know if it is a good price? From

    > anyone.



  • S Ebels
    S Ebels Member Posts: 2,322
    You know it's right when

    After it's all done, the system works excellent, the installer shows back up when you call him, he gives you a year's worth of unlimited advice and help with your system and the efficiency is great!

    You will find none of those things in your lowest bid(s)

    I promise!
  • Eugene Silberstein
    Eugene Silberstein Member Posts: 1,380
    Very difficult question to answer

    If you were shopping for a DVD player, it would be very wise to shop by price alone, as a model #ABC123 is going to be the same no matter where it was purchased. When you are buying a heating system or any other system that requires a certain level of expertise, knowledge and skill to have installed properly, you cannot shop by price alone. As a matter of fact, the first cost standpoint (initial cost) should be low on your list of priorities.

    You must do your homework and find a contractor that will provide you with the level of care, service, expertise and skill that you desire.

    High quality does not come cheap. You can be quite certain that, if you shop by price alone, you will wind up paying more than the highest bidder in the long run.

    In the HOT TECH TOPICS section of this site, there are three articles that you should read. They are:

    "We're probably not the low bidders"

    "You may be wondering how we arrived at the price on your job"

    and

    "21 Things you can expect from us as we begin your job"

    Remember, you are paying for expertise. If you were falsely accused of a crime and needed a lawyer, would you shop by price or would you select a lawyer that knows the law like the back of his hand and has a proven track record in similar cases?

    Happy reading.

    It pays to wander off THE WALL.
  • B. Tice
    B. Tice Member Posts: 206
    $$

    Hey, maybe when you get the other estimates, it won't seem so high.:)
  • Rodney Summers
    Rodney Summers Member Posts: 748
    Get several quotes

    It all comes down to value. Since EK is sold through a dealer network, not everyone can get parts for it: (The management board anyway). But make sure you're comparing apples to apples: A brand name CI boiler with an indirect, not a dry based steel boiler with tankless coil.

    I also wanted an EK system for my home. I didn't mind the price, but I didn't like what I thought were cheaper components: Beckett AFG burner, glase lined booster tank.

    I put in a Burnham LE with Riello burner, Phase III stainless steel indirect, Tekmar 260 boiler control and had my chimney lined for the same price of just getting the System2000. Maybe a percentage point or two less efficent, but I think I got a better overall value.
  • I. Wundermich
    I. Wundermich Member Posts: 9
    And then there is the one boiler manufacturer

    that can look after all of the components in house: boiler, burner, stand, controller, mixing valve, actuator, prewired circulator, indirect DHW tank (with warranty as long as you are). Ask about the two year no deductible parts warranty.

    Oh, and did I forget to tell you the name of that manufacturer? Ask anyone on the Wall.
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
    Price is a poor indicator of anything.....

    one saying i like from China is Expensive is expensive,buh Cheap, cheap is not cheap.

    When you pay a lot of money for something that too is no indication of its quality.

    What seems like a deal probably isn't.

    Comparing tutti fruity ice cream with Free base is probably going to give you some very poor decision making abilities especially if free base is cheap and your favorite ice cream is expensive :) so basically what i am saying is you would no sooner eat plates of crack because it was cheaper than your favorite ice cream than i would.
    When you think price is the only concern then it insults me to answer you mostly because it is as abhorrent an idea as me eating plates of crack.


    to insinuate that a boiler has to be maintained at 180 degrees or a host of other propaganda i find that equally egregious as it is propaganda shuffled on the minds of the gullible to believe some nonsense to suit the B.S some manufacturer is out to propagate. i happen to like partial differential set back for a variety of reasons i have encountered during my lifetime where i live. A modulating condensing boiler is no problem for me to wrap my mind around nor is the designe of the Viessmann .You do your homework , we arent living in the last century around here.

    A system 2000 is an excellent designe for a boiler. which boiler you might buy has some relationship to your other choises. to me ,there is no accounting for everyones pallet *~/:) i'd rather have a plate of B B Q! ribs some sweet buttered corn bread, two ears of corn and some coleslaw with a little extra vinegar :) to me that is what i like ,yah i could go out jump an aeroplane and be eating Roast lion in 5 or 6 hours buh it just doesnt appeal to me as much :) maybe you do your reading and find out what you think you like.... it doesnt have to be expensive to be done to perfection:)
  • Steve Paul_4
    Steve Paul_4 Member Posts: 10
    Bargains

    You should wait until you get all of your bids in. Then make a comparison of the warranties, service offers, system design, installers compitence and experience, ability to communicate so that you understand what the contractor is doing and why. Most of all go with your "GUT". Price should only be a minor factor. My Grandmother always said "The poor pay Twice". Remember the old saying "You get what you pay for"? WELL IT'S WRONG! It should be "You DON'T get what you DON'T pay for".
  • Glen
    Glen Member Posts: 855
    it depends -

    on which side of the pencil you are on. Assuming absolutely first class equipment and controls - and you tell your client during the interview that it will be XX dollars a square foot - and they don't wince - you add "plus taxes and permits of course!" :-) Seriously though - getting what you are willing to pay for vs getting excellent value for your long term heating buck - are IMO - completely opposite in intent. I would go for the latter every tiem.
  • Tom_69
    Tom_69 Member Posts: 2


    Wow. SOme great input here. Thanks to everyone for responding.
  • Bob W._3
    Bob W._3 Member Posts: 561


    OK, I'll bite. What mgfr. is that?
  • jerry scharf_3
    jerry scharf_3 Member Posts: 419
    It's so easy to focus on the boiler

    Tom,

    Like so many people, you have fallen into the common rut. Person A quote boiler X at price Y and person B quotes boiler Z at price W. Since the boiler is the biggest single item on the list, it's wasy to get the impression that the boiler is what you are buying.

    You are building a new house. That means you are having a heating system installed. Would you hire a mechanic to design a car? So it's not whether they know how to connect a boiler into place, but it really about how good are they at designing a heating system. Are there mecahincs who could design a car? Yes, but they are very rare.

    The goals of a heating system is to keep you safe, comfortable and use as little energy as possible to do so. It doesn't sound like the people are taking you though a design and the tradeoffs. This is engineering at it's core, and whoever you get should help you to understand the choices you have and the costs of the choices.

    Also, since the house is under construction, you will probably roll the hetaing system costs into the mortgage. This provides you with more ability to invest now for a system that will pay for many years. We each have our crystal balls for where energy prices are going, but I think we all know which way it is going. Spread over 360 payments, the cost impact of a higher efficiency system, better insulation and the like can be fairly small.

    As a final thought, look into whether you can reduce the cost of the heating system by increasing the quality of the building envelope. Better and more careful insulation, doors and windows are about the best efficiency gain, and there is no time like right now to get that done right. The cheapest energy is the stuff you don't use.

    best of luck,
    jerry
  • WaterHeaterGuy
    WaterHeaterGuy Member Posts: 80
    If the customer complains a bit...

    ... but writes the check anyway. The price is right.
This discussion has been closed.