Wallies: Please help payment problem!

Ken D.

I would restate the facts, request payment within a specified timeframe and DOCUMENT. If no payment, Lodge a mechanics lien, report to the credit bureaus and give the debt to a good collection agency. Don't beat yourself up or lose any sleep. It's not just you. There are people who do this kind of thing to contractors all the time. They go from working man to working man and get free goods and services. The credit reporting bureaus are effective. We should use them more often.

Jamie_6

Would you guys?

Would you guys please review the following letter and give me any ideas before I send it?



Dear xxxx,


I am sending you this letter after hours of deliberation and frustration. First off I do not appreciate your cheap shoot at the amount of time it took to complete your Unico Air Conditioning System. This was a system that was previously started by another contractor and done half heartedly at that! I had also mentioned that I was not interested in completing this system because I did not feel comfortable coming in half way through a job I did not start. Although, we had developed a relationship and I went against my gut feeling. Once we actually started correcting and working on your system (also waiting for you or Muffy to be home so we could work) the system was completed in an orderly and timely fashion.


You are correct I did receive your letter and photos regarding the heavy condensation on the ductwork of the 16 SEER American Standard System that we installed two summers ago. After receiving that letter I did contact the General Contractor on the job Dave Kent to get his opinion and stance on the situation. I wanted a third party opinion on the situation and you had mentioned that you wanted a floor joist replaced due to a condensation mark left on the bottom of it. It all seemed a bit dramatic to me, that’s why I contacted Dave and not you.


I also agree with your statement that “mold is an insidious problem.” But let’s not discount that all the trade magazines warn us that mold is a great way for lawyers to make money now. They have even coined a phrase “asbestos is old and mold is gold!” I do recall our conversation with Dave about insulating the ductwork in the chase through the second floor. And Dave and his crew did insulate that chase with at least an R-11, which is much higher then any duct wrap I can purchase. As far as the ductwork in the mechanical room I saw no need to insulate that and a matter of fact it had not produced any condensation at the end of the previous summer. Although, this summer was extremely humid and created a different dilemma in this scenario. I think if the mechanical room had a vent in it this problem would have never occurred, due to the fact that we would be removing humidity from that room too.

Also, I do not recall asking you to stop sending me articles from magazines pertaining to heating and air conditioning. Actually I enjoyed reading the articles and felt appreciative that you found time in your busy schedule to enlighten me, which is a pretty selfless act. I do recall telling you that I already get Radiant Living because I am a member of the (RPA) Radiant Panel Association and that is their monthly periodical.


Now, as far as the article you sent me in your last letter titled Codes & Standards Managing Moisture and Mold. The second paragraph states,


The stated purpose for 62.1 is “to specify minimum ventilation rates and indoor air quality that will be acceptable to human occupants and are intended to minimize the potential for adverse health effects.” The standard applies to all indoor or enclosed spaces that people may occupy and it considers chemical, physical and biological contaminates that can affect air quality.


This second paragraph which you underlined is quite interesting to me. It talks about biological contaminates! Well, the only biological contaminates in that room are from the bathroom. And after further investigation I found out that it is against code to have a toilet in the same room as your electrical service anyway. So if the code doesn’t work for you its O.K. But if the code doesn’t work for me it’s not O.K???????? Something does not seem fair or right!


At the end of your letter you state,
“The ductwork will be replaced with acceptable fiberglass ducts, internal or externally insulated. You have until April 15th, 2006 to complete work or I will hire another contractor and deduct cost from funds due you and pay you the balance when work is completed. I must approve type of ductwork and be present when it is installed.”


First off, I do not appreciate you holding my money hostage from a job completed on June 15, 2005 over a job that was completed and paid for a year ago. I know in your business you are paid after goods are received or services rendered. I am sorry to say but I am not interested in fixing your problem and authorize you to find a qualified contractor to do the repairs you find necessary. I would also like you to know that after my one year warranty agreement to service your equipment is over I will also not be interested in any of your service work. I would still like payment immediately with the deduction and receipt for necessary repairs done to your system.


Regretfully,


xxxxxx

Brad White_21

Some thoughts, Jamie

Jamie, Hi-

Not knowing what exactly transpired (this letter is one side of a conversation, cannot be helped). Basically a good letter, gets the facts out but could be refined a bit.

I have some thoughts:

1. It feels good to get this out, doesn't it? Good. Let the letter sit a day or so and go back to it. See how it sounds a day after you put the effort and emotion into it. My guess is Roger will get some satisfaction out of seeing you upset. And I do not know Roger from Adam.

2. After a day, revisit the letter as if you were the receipient, Roger. Check spelling and syntax. Roger might deduct $ points for typos he would make himself.

Some of the terms you use, while probably all too accurately portray how you feel, will just inflame Roger.

(Some parts of Roger apparently are already flaming, one might observe.)

Point here is to take out all emotion and stick to facts, preferably a chronology, structured like a legal argument. You did work. Started on this date, finished on that date. The work is satisfactory and done per the specifications (manufacturers recommendations, referenced standards, what have you) and you must be paid. Period.

3. Try to keep focus on the net outcome desired and what transpired to get to where you are now. There seem to be references to other situations that are not, at least to me, entirely related. Yes, supportive (mold discussion, 2-year old 16 SEER system issue) but they sound like red herrings that Roger is dropping in a thinly veiled attempt at an excuse not to pay you. Perhaps these supporting or at least distracting arguments or topics can be placed in an appendix or separate letter? Keep the prime letter on-topic.


SAMPLE LETTER:

Dear Roger,

**** you.

Strong letter to follow.

Jamie.

(Just kidding.)

My read on this is that Roger dropped these red herrings to confuse and obfuscate what is a simple matter and you by mentioning them have taken the bait.

4. Your state laws may vary, but do you have a Workman's Lien Statute? If so, use it. They can be time sensitive. Check with your Secretary of State or a lawyer friend. A lawyer who sees mold as a fungi, not a revenue stream.

5. Check your contract prior to meeting with your friendly legal advisor.

My $0.02,

Brad

p.s. I checked out the photos. Nice work! At least some people appreciate it.....

jerry scharf_3

Tell us about the contract

Jamie,

First, tell us about the clauses of the contract. In my state, payment is due at "substantial completion", not when the customer is fully satisfied. Do you have a clause to charge interest for late payment? What else does your contract say?

Do not talk about the future. Do not talk about his articles. Do not offer to pay one cent right now. Pull together a summary of the project from start to finish, dates, work done, completion criteria, final testing. Get the things you would need to present this in court. Him sending articles is not a contractual communication, it needs to be a detailed letter requesting changes and a required written response. Make it clear than nothing other than the original scope of work has been agreed to by you.

Leave all the other stuff off the plate, and put Roger on the defensive. In my state you are ready to go to court to request a judgement against him, plus interest and costs. (I think it would be too late to put a mechanic's lien on the job in CA.)

Spend the time now, make it clear that you're not annoyed. You're serious about getting your money that he owes you, and that you are ready for the concequenses. Is he? It takes so little to trash someone's credit report.

jerry

ScottMP

Jamie

The two previous post are right on the money and are giving you very good advice.

This just proves that gut reactions are correct. From what I see this job looks like the typical high quality work we have come to expect from the Pompettis. This guy just dos'nt want to pay anyone and will Never be happy.

Take a deep breath, read what Brad and Jerry have said, re-write your letter and get as much money as you can and then walk away. You'll take a hit but this loser will be out of your life and you can move on to better jobs.

Just my Two cents.

Scott

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jim lockard

with Jerry

Jamie- Stay with the facts of your work, Unless you installed the toilet and electrical service, do not debate the building codes.
Keep your letter clear and consice with one goal in mind, you want your money. Best Wishes J.Lockard

Jamie_6

This is where the problem is! I did install 1200 suare feet of Wirsbo Quik Trac under contract and both of the other 16 SEER American Standard Air Conditioning Systems under contract. I never wrote a contract on the Unico System. I just worked off of a verbal agreement.

Lessons Learned:

Recieve payment after system is complete and still on location.

ALWAYS DRAFT A CONTRACT.

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Dave H_2

Honey or vinegar

Like Brad was saying, let it sit there and revisit after a day or so, think about, don't brood over it.

One point, the first paragraph is strong and sets the tone for the entire letter and everything else after will be in that same tone

Rodney Summers

By the looks of Roger's house

He's got bucks. A lawyer himself? Be careful what you write. If you have no contract on the Unico work, weight the loss of walking away from payment. It might be cheaper then the legal costs. I think the next contractor is in trouble also.

bovide_6

The previous posts were right on the money. Revise the letter, and repost. Or, send it to me directly. I know nothing about HVAC, but I am really good at proofreading, spelling, and syntax.

clammy

no verbal ever

This is something i;ve learned not even with friends or family it's very rare i do hand shakes no more .I would probaly cut out the toilet near the electrcal servce thing and depending how much time and money was wasted on the unico knowing me i'de would have licked my wounds and chaulked it up to not going with my gut .For me it's does not take much to make me walk if i don't like the HO attuide i walk .In the furture try to get everything in writing no matter who in these days yA CAN'T TRUST ANY BODY AND IF HE'S A LAWYER FOGET about it it will cost you in the long run .Very sorry to read your promblem but in your letter i would tame it down and try to just explain to him fairly .That's all you can and moveon i feel ever once in a while you need to haave your skull cap reminded about how smart you gut is peaceand good luck clammy PS sometimes guilt gets them i finally got paid for a steam re pipe drop header i did over 6 months ago guilt it's powerful to somwe lawyers don't get it though

Empire_2

I'm not sure this applies, But

This is a perfect example why (at least my company) get's a down payment and especially large jobs some kind of payment structure. Seems like you picked the biggest A** hole in the world to do work for. Don't let him pick you apart and cut your losses and get out while you can.

Empire_2

Clammy

You are right on the money!!!

Craig Bergman

Just the facts!!!

Jamie;

You should stick to the facts only...
Do not admit in any way that something may not be to code!!
Judging from the photographs, this is NOT an issue.
Do NOT allow him to deduct your money from another contractor who will not get paid.

My 2 cents

Bergy

Paul Pollets

This post

illustrates the lack of contract language pertaining to progress payments required on ALL jobs, big or small. Or maybe not even a contract was signed?? When we're ready to commision the equipment, the contract with the owner has specified a 90%progress payment. Often 95%. We never commision or startup the system until the account is paid. I've never had a job go South with specific contract payments. At worst, I would lose 5% or 10%, but I'd never wait more than 90days, and there would certainly be a mechanics lien filed. Proper contracts and collection cannot be ignored. It hurts to see this...we work too hard not to get paid.

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captnfrawls

>"This was a system that was previously started by another contractor and done half heartedly at that! I had also mentioned that I was not interested in completing this system because I did not feel comfortable coming in half way through a job I did not start."<
In the future and assuming you did not do this in this episode, make sure you talk to the first contractor who walked off the job to find out why. He may have been able to share info reinforcing your initial gut response. Then, you to may choose to write a good contract or just steer clear altogether
Nice lookin job.

Terry_14

Words that don't wigle

> _"This was a system that was previously started

> by another contractor and done half heartedly at

> that! I had also mentioned that I was not

> interested in completing this system because I

> did not feel comfortable coming in half way

> through a job I did not start."_ In the future

> and assuming you did not do this in this episode,

> make sure you talk to the first contractor who

> walked off the job to find out why. He may have

> been able to share info reinforcing your initial

> gut response. Then, you to may choose to write a

> good contract or just steer clear altogether

> Nice lookin job.



I have a few of the following non infamitory terms

Accepted industry standards

Breach of verbal contract

Terry_14

Words that don't wigle

I have used a few of the following non infamitory terms

Compleated with Accepted industry standards

Breach of verbal contract

Work compleated per our verbal contract

Mechanics lein

Arbitration

and always remember KISS
Keep it simple stupid Get the venum out with your friends on the wall but don't allow him any wiggle room in your letter.

The only ones who win in court are the lawyers

Good Luck! Your skill is evident in pictures Terry

Would enjoy reading your final draft that way we all get smarter

Long Beach Ed

Keep it Simple

This guy is a deadbeat bent on not paying you. He probably didn't pay the guy who started the job either.

Address his concerns directly and simply in a language the small claims judge will understand. Send it certified mail.

If you do any corrective work, follow up with another certified letter anda damand for payment.

Teh just go to collection on it. This is the kind of guy who doesn't pay anyone. We have lots of them on Long Island, which is how I saw him as soon as I read about the unfinshed job you took on.

Ed

jerry scharf_3

Ahh

So Roger knows he has you over a barrel. It's a painful lesson and one you'll never do again without a great deal of thought. Even T&M jobs need to lay out payment terms, etc. Looks like you are going to take some emotional and financial lumps on this.

Still check with whether there is a "substantial competion" rule for payment in PA. If there is no contract, the law would still hold and he would still be obligated to pay. If he has the system in operation, that certainly qualifies as substantial completion. I would also not let him "choose a contractor and deduct whatever..." He has proven his colors, no need to trust him any more. Offer him a lump sum to have someone else fix the specific problem.

I also like the comment about the gut feel. You knew somewhere not ot take the job, but that is such a hard thing to accept in a world where there is rationality is always supposed to rule.

Hang in there and get this thing over with in the way that minimized the grief and cost. Move on to other things a bit wiser. Also, it will help you appreciate the good customers even more!

jerry

jackchips_2

Jerry

wouldn't there be a "verbal" or implied contract, especially if any payments were made on the additional work?

This has been an interesting and informative thread and I believe if Jamie follows most of it in relations to this specific problem he should come out with a positive attitude if not some actual payment.

Jack

Nron_13

contracts are for everyone

> This guy is a deadbeat bent on not paying you.

> He probably didn't pay the guy who started the

> job either.

>

> Address his concerns directly

> and simply in a language the small claims judge

> will understand. Send it certified mail.

>

> If

> you do any corrective work, follow up with

> another certified letter anda damand for

> payment.

>

> Teh just go to collection on it.

> This is the kind of guy who doesn't pay anyone.

> We have lots of them on Long Island, which is how

> I saw him as soon as I read about the unfinshed

> job you took on.

>

> Ed

Nron_13

contracts are for everyone

it helps protect us and the home owner as well. they should get what they pay for , you mentioned a stain on a joist where is it how large is the stain , is it actually from the duct work or something above leaking down causing the stain. Ask him to explain why he has not paid in full or made payments in the last year ? What would happen to his car if he were a year late on payments , I think someone else would be driving by now , go there and look at the job and take the unico out for testing back to your shop and return when he has paid his bill

jerry scharf_3

verbal contracts

Aren't worth the paper they aren't written on.

What was the exact scope of the work? What were the payment terms? What exactly was said in each and every conversation? Were they legally accurate?

Nope, you're screwed if the other person chooses to screw you. I do things without contracts some times, but it's based on the track record and how much am I willing to risk.

jerry

jerry scharf_3

Oooo

Ron,

I like that.

Jamie, you may indeed need to do some testing to figure out exactly what to do with the duct condensate. It's might be worth paying a refrigerant recycling and fill cost.

jerry

Brad White_9

That IS a great idea....

With no contract (ha!) the Unico bill of sale is made out to whom now? Possession being 9/10ths of the law (old chestnut not entirely true) you have rights to the equipment. Brilliant and simple. Of course this is now a conspiracy.. but all is fair....

jerry scharf_3

I was with you

For most of it.

Arbitration can be as ugly or uglier than a court case. If you want to read about the "cottage industry" of construction dispute resolution, pick up a copy of "Joe Boyd's Build it Twice." Joe is possibly the ultimate construction management curmudgeon, earned by participating in construction dispute resolution for over 30 years.

Also, the verbal contract stuff leaves too much interpretation. What is and isn't in the scope of work, What exactly werre the payment terms. For my money, never do a handshake for anything you would really hate to lose.

jerry


jerry

[Deleted User]

Then...

why not perform a Plumbers lien. If you don't pay for it, you can't use it. Turn off whatever services it is that are being used with the appliance, which include electrical, gas and water with tamper proof pad locks on the meter cocks, and when you're paid, you will restore service. If he thinks you're bluffing him, go over to the house, and turn off the meter for a while, snuffing pilots and creating general thermal shortages and subsequent pandamonium, and call him at 7:30 AM afther his wifes cold shower and tell him that you shut off his thermal system with a remote device that is attached to his heating system. it WILL get his attention. Tell him that if you're paid in full by sundown that you would activate the other devices that you have installed on his electric and water supply systems, and see what he says...

Then, when you go and relight his pilots, you get your CASH payment, and he gets heat back into his life...

His wife will think you're thee HERO. If momma ain't happy, aint NOBODY happy...

ME

corey_3

Been there done that...that is what you would call a buisiness learning experience.In my opinion and experience the customer is a very picky person who feels they have been wronged and are only "protecting themselves".The only way I feel you will get anywhere with this person is to bring in a third party (arbitrator) that can "inspect the work" and give recomendations or things to correct.An inspector or a manufacturars rep may do. BUT!!!! do this with the aggreement IN WRITING that payment is paid in full upon that list being completed. Then go back there ... bite your tongue while there and swear never to go near that house again and tell all the other contractors you know to beware of that guy.
Oh and most important from now on GET IT IN WRITING.
I say all this from experience that I swear never to forget.
Good luck

Weezbo

I really like to Know what possible advantage is in a written

contract....what enforces the verbage? more verbage? if people are out to take others for all they are worth and misinformed mis guided you blunders into their web and you get it in writing...i really dont see what difference it makes .a court judgement is like a joke to them.. so what ? is where they are going to go with that.

then once a year they have someone call you on the phone and see if you will settle for less....all the while it just irratates the .... to me it is like having the judges kick people back out on the street in 12 days for armed robbery and a few days later they are right back at it.

Wayco Wayne_2

Hey Jamie

I just got burned on a verbal contract. I swear I'll learn my lesson this time. The job dragged on over a year and the customer and I remembered the terms differently by the end of the job. We both compromised on the final agreement, but I should know better. It's no win when both sides feel ripped off. I just look in the mirror and repeat to myself the immortal words from the classic movie, "Animal House." "Fat lazy and stupid is no way to go through life son." WW

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jerry scharf_3

Weezbo

(are you going to have to change your handle now that wirsbo is no more?)

I'm sounding like a broken record, but you asked.

First, the contract defines and exact scope of work. It says what is and isn't included. It has a defined process for change orders and there is a written trail of all such changes. No "I thought that was included..." discussions.

Second it defines the terms of completion and the terms of payment. Words like "substantial completion" and "commisioning" triggering final payment. It also defines what constitutes finishing. Words like "industry standards" and "code compliance" should show up.

Thirdly, it talks about time and job requirements. As Jamie's job shows, the person was beating him ap but did not provide "working hours" access to the site. Will the unit be operating during the construction? Who deals with damage from other trades?

Lastly, it gives clear direction as to where it goes next. You should be able to add interest to delinquent payments. You should be able to refer the debt to a collection agent. You should be able to add all expenses associated with the collection to the outstanding balance.

The tricky thing is to do all this in 2 pages or less and not scare the hell out of the customer.

jerry

Motivated Amateur

Jamie,
Good letter overall, but it can be shortened quite a bit and made more clear. DO NOT quote his language and retort- this is allowing him to frame the issue as he sees it, and you are then in his ballpark. Don't quote codes, and don't get legal on him. If this gets to small claims court (or whichever court has jurisdiction in PA for the amount you are owed - not necessarily small claims), you want a clear record of the FACTS - nothing else. He is looking either to not pay, or to cut your price down. If you get to court, you want to be able to show that you did what you were supposed to do, and he has not held up his end of the bargain. It is the judge that decides what is fair, considering, legally speaking, a balancing of the equities (kinda like balancing a steam system, but not nearly as neat and clean). I don't recommend the plumbers lein, as one guy mentioned, but I would be ready to drop a mechanic's lein on the job very soon. Altogether, your letter should not be more than 3 paragraphs. Write it like this: (a)Topic of the letter (the disputed work and payment) (b) facts- that you did the work satisfactorily, if true. (c) your demand. Let's see the final product, and stick to the 24-hour rule - don't send it out until you have read it with a fresh eye and head, devoid of emotion. Hope this helps.

clammy

another note to all

Beware of those who take the permit and places it in the window but with the reverse showing which in jersey says ,something like no final payment until final insepection .Had this happen many years ago and like you jamie he was a lawyer and guess what he didn't pay promised to and suckered my boss into installing 3 split systems and guess what didn't get PIF either .Everybody yells and curses us tries to steal the food from our mouths but lawyer they can get you something for nothing except they take 33 1/3 percent of the settlement that,s when the HO or client yells pretty funny yeah peace and good luck clammy

heatboy

Even with all of the precautions...................

..........we take as contractors, if someone is out to steal from me, they will no matter what actions I take. Been there. Write it off to a valuable lesson. Since I live by "what goes around comes around", I have faith that they will get theirs.

Now, it's equipment money up front and progress payments frquently. I have stopped jobs because of tardy payments. Currently and even with all of these precautions, I have a builder 90 days out for $5K. Hopefully, it won't be another expensive lesson :-)

hb

www.climatecadvanced.com

john_27

jamie...

do not send the letter the way it is written.....you are trying to be decent and nice,but your quality of work is excellent...don't downplay it. You came into an existing job and are getting tarred for it. i would check with a lawyer about filing a mechanics lien. if the owner is a self acknowledged expert, and is in fact direct the job,he bares liability for his own mistakes....in terms of money, i have some steam work and a central air install in the guest house if you would like it....And, I'll pay you in full up front...John