Energy Savings ????

Duane_2

I have in the past had Viessman do a ROI (Return On Investment) chart. They have a great program that can show what a home owner or building owner can get back ($) out of a higher efficient boiler over time. The representative or manufacturer should be able to supply this info to help you sell the job. But you will have to supply them with info as well. Showing it as an investment seems to relate to all people as we are in a money hungry world.

Shaun Anderson

Does my fellow wallies

know of any research done showing energy savings between going cast iron , copper , or condensing boilers ? Something to show both contractors and homeowners of why to go higher eff. and to show paybacks. Seems like a huge project to track being you need to design all the same. Any info will be helpfull.

TheFuture

Ken_8

There's so much reserach

in this area, you need to be more specific. The DOE, GAMA, manufacturers, AHSRAE, API, and sites like this: http://www.eia.doe.gov/fueloverview.html#F are all over.

What specifically in this arena do you want data on?

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Shaun Anderson

Looking for

how long till you see paybacks on going higher eff. Like if you had the same setup in a house how much would you save a month having one of these units, cast , copper , condensing and granddaddy of condensing boilers Viessmann. Any info to show the homeowner, well if we put in a cast iron heres your payback and if you went top dog heres what you'll see. Maybe I'm not explaining it right. Kinda feel where I'm going ?

hr

The largest unknown

IMO, is the life expectancy, and $$ amount of necessary yearly maintenance to keep them healthy. Time will tell if 10 years is a real number or 15-20, for high efficiency, exotic, erotic modulating condensors.

Cast iron has proven itself, copper to some degree, for boiler materials.

I hope the new age boilers prove to be the "ticket". It sure does make sense to heat water with this technology. I'm betting my customers money on it

hot rod

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Keith_8

Don't we owe

it to the customers to make them aware of the benefits of technology?

Isn't it amazing, when you can clearly see the answer for them but they don't want to make the committment to move forward?

What would you think a reasonable payback period would be for a home or building?

Keith

Simply Rad_2

Satified

My customers are satified! I have never felt good about what I am doing in life-installing the ultimate in comfort and efficiency! I am very confident where radiant technogy is going. Yes it is hard to get customers to understand this, but that's the struggle in business we are striving to get better at. I am just posted a similiar subject on the entire radiant system efficiency-boiler and radiant panel. I spoke with HTP about boiler efficiency and they are claiming somwhere around 30% savings using a Munchkin boiler over a tradiatonal cast iron. One thing to consider is the radiant panel. Muchkins are designed to condense and when they are not the efficiency drops.
Jeffrey

Constantin

Well, you can lead a horse to water...

... but you cannot force it to drink. Making payback predictions is a very tricky business because it assumes the consumption pattern (in terms of BTUs) does not change. However, I have seen studies where inefficient equipment was thrown out, insulation added, etc. and energy consumption went up!

How is it possible? Quite simple, really, and there is an economic term for it that I cannot recall at the moment (I am pre-coffee). Before the renovations, the tenants heated very little and put on lots of clothes to compensate. There was little point in heating due to the very high losses out of the building. Afterwards, they delighted in running around in T-shirts and shorts, while heating the place to a toasty 70+°F.

So, unless you can control for the settings that the system is used under, I would shy away from making hard-and-fast payback predictions. Instead, I'd couch it in vague terms such as "observed gas savings for similar projects ranged from 25-40% per year" - if that is something you have observed. We have seen it here, there are plenty of datapoints to go by, but I wouldn't bet my business on observations from the internet.

Tony Conner_2

It Depends On...

... how much the annual heating cost for a given house will be. If you're looking at a realatively small, tight house, the payback may never be there for higher cost condensing heating equipment. It's kind of like diesel engines in trucks. If you don't drive enough in an average year, you won't pay back the increased cost of the diesel option within a reasonable timeframe. The cost of diesel in my area is typically a little less than gasoline. Combined with the increased fuel economy I get the diesel engine, it costs me about 55% of what it would cost to run gasoline. However, unless I drive at least 20,000 miles per year, it'll take me over 3 years to get a return on the $6,500 Cdn extra the diesel engine cost. Once I hit 60,000 miles - I start to reap the savings. However long it takes me to drive that far is the payback timeframe just to break even.

Somebody in a 100 year old 6 bedroom farmhouse in a cold climate may get a payback in a few years on high eff equipment. Another smaller, newer, tighter house further south may take 20 years to recover the investment in a higher eff heating system. This calculation will pretty much need to be made on a house-by-house basis. A $10,000 investment to save $500 per year in fuel costs will be a tough sell anywhere.