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on-demand water heaters

ScottMP
ScottMP Member Posts: 5,884
You have a nice system, that needs to have the control changed. Have your system run as a cold start and you won't have that noise in the middle of the night ( at least not as often ). Your indirect hot water maker has plenty of insulation to hold its temp. Your boiler dosn't. Its loosing its heat and firing up again to "maintane" a set temperature.

Change it to cold start.

Scott

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Comments

  • Merk
    Merk Member Posts: 2
    on-demand water heaters

    Would it be possible to read comments from professionals or homeowners about the pros and cons of indirect water heating compared to on-demand water heaters? Our current system includes radiant heat, oil-fired Weil McLean boiler, and a Gold 40 indirect water heater. The comments should include initial cost, operating costs, maintenance costs, as well as warranties. My main objections to our present system are two:
    1. Boiler is too noisy
    2. Boiler fires during the night, even when outside temps are 65F.
    Thanks, Merk
  • Michal
    Michal Member Posts: 213
    your boiler is fine

    Sounds like you are gettting a little anoyed at the fact that it is loud when running. This is the burner motor, which is normal, unless there is another noise you are talking about, or the burner has a problem. It will come on at night because it is maintaining water temperature in the boiler. So whats happening is that the boiler is cooling down and has to refire to warm up the water. All perfectly normal. Outside temperature has no bearing on your boiler firing. it will fire when heat is needed, when domestic hot water is needed, or when water temperatur in the boiler falls below the setting. You have probobly the best set up there is right now. Thats my honest opinion
  • chapchap701
    chapchap701 Member Posts: 6
    A solution but initially expensive.

    I don't believe there is an on demand oil fired water heater as you are thinking of it. A boiler with a hot water storage tank that will not fire to keep the boiler warm and is quiet is a System 2000. You can have it installed with sealed combustion which saves fuel and makes it very quiet.

    The boiler is cold start and cold finish. You get your investment back because it is much more energy efficient. Their website is system2000.com

    I don't think we can put prices on here and the price I would tell you would be a guess since I don't work for the company and the company I do work for does not install System 2000. It is safe to say that it would be more expensive than the Weil McLain.

    Energy Kinetics (the company that makes System 2000) recommends that a radiant buffer tank be installed for radiant heat to keep the burner run cycles longer. If your radiant heat zone(s) are less then 35000 BTU's per hour at design temperature, you can use the domestic storage tank with an additional plate heat exchanger to isolate the radiant system.
  • Michal
    Michal Member Posts: 213
    ONE PROBLEM

    energy kinetics only sells to its own contractors????
    but yes it is a quiet boiler, but so are riello burners. Energy kinetics are a few hundred more then a weilmclain. Putting prices here I think is not fair. but Carl, sounds like home owner is just not liking the cycling of the system I feel and just needs to better understand the system. A local service man should be called in to evaluate the system.
  • Steve_35
    Steve_35 Member Posts: 546
    Is your boiler maintaining temp?

    If so, convert it to cold start.

    IMO, most folks wouldn't want to live with the limited flow rate on demand water heaters provide. Let's say you look at a unit with an input of 150k btuh. You'll get about 2.6gpm with a 90F temp rise. A little more than a single flow restricted faucet.


  • chapchap701
    chapchap701 Member Posts: 6
    customer may not be happy with \"boiler running properly\"

    > energy kinetics only sells to its own

    > contractors???? but yes it is a quiet boiler,

    > but so are riello burners. Energy kinetics are a

    > few hundred more then a weilmclain. Putting

    > prices here I think is not fair. but Carl, sounds

    > like home owner is just not liking the cycling of

    > the system I feel and just needs to better

    > understand the system. A local service man should

    > be called in to evaluate the system.



    Merk,

    I'm not sure if you meant indirect water heater verses direct water heater, or demand fired like you said. The indirect water heater that runs off the boiler with no flue like you have is more efficient than a direct fired unit. With a direct fired unit, you would have two oil burners making noise.

    If you had a System 2000 installed, you would most likely get a service contract from the company that installs it. The cost of a contract varies from a couple to a few hundred dollars a year. What is covered also varies. The boiler has a warranty that covers the pressure vessel (the steel energy converter) fully for 10 years. After that, the coverage gradually lessens to 25% after 20 or 25 years, I forget which. The Energy Manager is also covered for 10 years.

    Michal,

    Merk's boiler may be running properly. From what he said, the operation seems normal. If it is verified by a service tech that the boiler is running normally, he still has a noise problem and a "running too much" problem that hasn't been resolved. It would be a disservice to him just to say "it's normal, forget about it" when there are other options.

  • chapchap701
    chapchap701 Member Posts: 6
    customer may not be happy with \"boiler running properly\"

    > energy kinetics only sells to its own

    > contractors???? but yes it is a quiet boiler,

    > but so are riello burners. Energy kinetics are a

    > few hundred more then a weilmclain. Putting

    > prices here I think is not fair. but Carl, sounds

    > like home owner is just not liking the cycling of

    > the system I feel and just needs to better

    > understand the system. A local service man should

    > be called in to evaluate the system.



    > energy kinetics only sells to its own

    > contractors???? but yes it is a quiet boiler,

    > but so are riello burners. Energy kinetics are a

    > few hundred more then a weilmclain. Putting

    > prices here I think is not fair. but Carl, sounds

    > like home owner is just not liking the cycling of

    > the system I feel and just needs to better

    > understand the system. A local service man should

    > be called in to evaluate the system.



    Merk,

    I'm not sure if you meant indirect water heater verses direct water heater, or demand fired like you said. The indirect water heater that runs off the boiler with no flue like you have is more efficient than a direct fired unit. With a direct fired unit, you would have two oil burners making noise. Many people would advise you to leave your boiler running in the summer to increase its life and so there would be less problems cleaning it.

    If you had a System 2000 installed, you would most likely get a service contract from the company that installs it.
    The cost of a contract varies from a couple to a few hundred dollars a year. What is covered also varies. The boiler has a warranty that covers the pressure vessel (the steel energy converter) fully for 10 years. After that, the coverage gradually lessens to 25% after 20 or 25 years, I forget which. The Energy Manager is also covered for 10 years.

    Michal,

    Merk's boiler may be running properly. From what he said, the operation seems normal. If it is verified by a service tech that the boiler is running normally, he still has a noise problem and a "running too much" problem that hasn't been resolved. It would be a disservice to him just to say "it's normal, forget about it" when there are other options.
    Maybe Merk doesn't want his money going up the chimney unnecessarily?

    "energy kinetics only sells to its own contractors????"

    If an oil dealer/service company called up Energy Kinetics and told them that his customer wants their boiler, EK would accomodate. They want more contractors; it only makes good business sense. They want to make sure that whoever installs their product knows how to do it properly because it does not operate like a standard boiler.
  • chapchap701
    chapchap701 Member Posts: 6
    customer may not be happy with \"boiler running properly\"

    Merk,

    I'm not sure if you meant indirect water heater verses direct water heater, or demand fired like you said. The indirect water heater that runs off the boiler with no flue like you have is more efficient than a direct fired unit. With a direct fired unit, you would have two oil burners making noise. Many people would advise you to leave your boiler running in the summer to increase its life and so there would be less problems cleaning it.

    If you had a System 2000 installed, you would most likely get a service contract from the company that installs it.
    The cost of a contract varies from a couple to a few hundred dollars a year. What is covered also varies. The boiler has a warranty that covers the pressure vessel (the steel energy converter) fully for 10 years. After that, the coverage gradually lessens to 25% after 20 or 25 years, I forget which. The Energy Manager is also covered for 10 years.

    Michal,

    Merk's boiler may be running properly. From what he said, the operation seems normal. If it is verified by a service tech that the boiler is running normally, he still has a noise problem and a "running too much" problem that hasn't been resolved. It would be a disservice to him just to say "it's normal, forget about it" when there are other options.
    Maybe Merk doesn't want his money going up the chimney unnecessarily?

    "energy kinetics only sells to its own contractors????"

    If an oil dealer/service company called up Energy Kinetics and told them that his customer wants their boiler, EK would accomodate. They want more contractors; it only makes good business sense. They want to make sure that whoever installs their product knows how to do it properly because it does not operate like a standard boiler.

  • Ken_8
    Ken_8 Member Posts: 1,640
    You have one of the

    best possible systems on the planet.

    Simply install a $20. timer to stop the boiler from running by wiring it to the W/M PLUS aquastat. Set the timer to break the aquastat circuit from bed time to wake time.

    The PLUS 40 will maintain heat for that 8 hour period nicely and you'll still have plenty of hot water when your tootsies hit the floor. You'll just eliminate the "maintenance cycles" throughout the sleep times.

    You may want to also consider doing another 8 hour "off" period for the PLUS during the day time when no one may be home?

    This timer usually can have three or four off/on periods a day. The recovery rate of the PLUS 40 is extreme when hooked up to even the smallest oil boiler!

    I'd bet you will pay for the timer in two months and you will eliminate almost all short-cycling to boot.

    GO FOR IT!

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  • Michal
    Michal Member Posts: 213


    Noise problem may be just the normal burner operation. If it is really loud change the burner to a riello with a insulated cover.

    Running too much??? What is considered too much?? Maybe the aquastat is set too close between differentials. Either way, yes, the boiler seems to be in normal operation.

    to me it seems like the guy will spend thousands just for a ultra quiet boiler??? The Gold series is not that old

    if thats the case go to a gas fired unit if possible

    in the end I agree with scott.
This discussion has been closed.