Noisy Pipes on a WM Ultra 230

Trevor Baptista

Here are the facts:

Have a new Ultra 230 which makes a humming noise like a tuning fork when it is space heating.

The noise is silent when the unit is heating the DHW tank.

Using 1-1/4" pipe for the primary loop with a Taco 011 pulling the water around the loop.

Have one zone feeding a hydrocoil. This zone is a 120' run of 1" pipe with a Taco 007 pushing the water through the loop.

The DHW tank is a WM Ultra Plus 60 with a Taco 012 pushing the water through the DHW tank.

The boiler cycles fine, space heats great and heats the DHW great. The lines have been purged and there is no sign of air in the system.

Please Help!

hr

I can't quite see

if you have a gas flex on the gas connection. They can make a hum or elk bugle noise

hot rod

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Tony_23

Different angle

Got more pics from the side ?

Can't see the piping adequately. Sounds like a flow issue.

I see the gas pipe is iron.

Dave_22

Yes-more pics from side!!!! Isn't a 0011 a little big for a primary pump or is that what WM recommends? Why is the expansion tank ball valve closed? Can't tell if that's really primary/secondary???

bob_34

my recently installed 155 makes exactly the same noise from the 0011. resonates the hum pretty good in the room over the boiler. i loosened some hangers this morning and may put rubber washers under the circulator bolts and see what happens. bob

Trevor Baptista

Yes, this picture was taken before the unit was operating. The ball valve on the expansion tank is currently open though. WM recommends and ships with the boiler a Taco 011 to be used in the boiler loop. The closeley spaced Tees are behind the PVC air exhaust and intake pipping.

Trevor Baptista

Here some more pics!

Trevor Baptista

New development! When i slowy turn the ball valave above the primary loop circulator the noise pitch changes!

Tony_23

Maybe

It's not in the piping ? Closing the valve in the primary will certainly change the pitch of something

Do I see 4x3 bushings in the vent/intake connections ? What is your equivalent length of vent with ells calculated in ? I know the 230 is only allowed 30 Ft w/2 LR 90's on 3". If you're at the limit, I'd upgrade it to 4". Bushings aren't the best either, compared to reducing couplings.

Floyd_20

I'm wondering...

why the second wire runs from the black pump to the Taco relay???? There is no reason for it. The Ultra runs that pump and the Taco should only run the zone pump. It probably isn't the cause of the noise, but it isn't right. Also, I would get the air scoop up in the highest portion of the piping for more effective air removal. The instructions also call for 12" straight pipe before the air scoop which it doesn't have.

Now after all that my bet is that the 0011 pump is the cause of the problem. If it was me, I would pull the wires at the black pump with the system running and see if the noise stops. This must be done with care to avoid get a "charge" out of it... :-)
My Ultra has "sung" ot me from the get go and I know that it is the pump, doesn't bother me, cause that is the only way I can tell that the system is running for heat. I also know that when it stops either the t-stat is satisfied, or the DHW circulator is running. Which brings up another question???? Is that a Plus 60 with 1/2" piping into and out of it???? A total waste of money.... a Plus 40 would make more hot water than you'll ever push through a 1/2" pipe.

Just my .02 cents.....

Floyd

Mark Hunt

Excuse me Floyd


Are you saying that the noise from the 0011 is acceptable because you use it as an indicator of the system running?

Full disclosure here folks.......I have never installed an Ultra nor have I ever seen one in operation. I am not trying to point out any design issue with the boiler and this is the first time I have seen any posting on this forum about a noise issue with the Ultra.

Having said that and knowing that there have been NO issues about this boiler I have to wonder if this isn't caused by something else. If this was a common problem we would have heard of it by now.

If this boiler were in my home, I would remove the 0011 and replace it with a Grundfos 15-58 and play with the pump speed. Manufacturers will always default to a worst case scenario in their installation manuals and your case may not meet their criteria.

Again, I will emphasize that I have never touched an Ultra but the laws of physics do not care who made what and I am not trying to bad mouth a manufacturer here. This sounds like a flow issue to me and if I had to guess, it is too much flow.

Mark H

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Floyd_20

Wow..................

it's not like a earth shaking rumble or nothing.... it's just a smal barely preceptable whine.....doesn't bother anyone and I'm probbably the only one that understands what the "sound" means. However, different people have different preception of "sound" and what doesn't bother my family, may be a big issue to a infantesimle (sp??) number of people. WM sends the 0011 with both the 155's and the 230's, it may be, a flow issue, but if you knock the flow back, it will affect the performance of the boiler. Ask me how I know??? :-)
I personally think that there are issuses with that particular pump, and the way it moves the water through the body of the pump it's self. I think the the chambers going into the pump and feeding the impeller are at fault and that sets up a resonnace in certain situations. I'm no pump expert, just observant....

Floyd

Mark Hunt

Hi Floyd!


Listen.......I am in NO WAY trying to disparage the Ultra. Not my style.

Just trying to figure out an issue here that I believe is due to flow.

Now the 15-58 has some different charchteristics than single speed pumps. This sounds like a harmonic issue. Now I could be 100% wrong here but it sure sounds like that is what is going on. It is a flow issue.

The OP has stated that when they play with a ball valve the "sound" changes. That tells me that this is a flow issue. Velocity.

A harmonic or "constant" as opposed to a popping or a sudden burst of noise.

Here again, I admit that I have no experience with this particular line of boiler, but physics do not change from manufacturer to manufacturer.

Mark H

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Mark Hunt

Hi Floyd!


Listen.......I am in NO WAY trying to disparage the Ultra. Not my style.

Just trying to figure out an issue here that I believe is due to flow.

Now the 15-58 has some different charchteristics than single speed pumps. This sounds like a harmonic issue. Now I could be 100% wrong here but it sure sounds like that is what is going on. It is a flow issue.

The OP has stated that when they play with a ball valve the "sound" changes. That tells me that this is a flow issue. Velocity.

A harmonic or "constant" as opposed to a popping or a sudden burst of noise.

Here again, I admit that I have no experience with this particular line of boiler, but physics do not change from manufacturer to manufacturer.

Mark H

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Mark Hunt

Hi Floyd!


Listen.......I am in NO WAY trying to disparage the Ultra. Not my style.

Just trying to figure out an issue here that I believe is due to flow.

Now the 15-58 has some different charchteristics than single speed pumps. This sounds like a harmonic issue. Now I could be 100% wrong here but it sure sounds like that is what is going on. It is a flow issue.

The OP has stated that when they play with a ball valve the "sound" changes. That tells me that this is a flow issue. Velocity.

A harmonic or "constant" as opposed to a popping or a sudden burst of noise.

Here again, I admit that I have no experience with this particular line of boiler, but physics do not change from manufacturer to manufacturer.

Mark H

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Mark Hunt

double post

Trevor Baptista

There is a relay switch that is turned off and on by the primary pump. That is why There is two wires coming out of the black pump. If the boiler loop is off then the zone circ can not run. This is so when the DHW tank calls all zones shut done. I have another air scoop in the attic at the hydro coil which is the absolute highest point of the system. I have run the system with only the 011 and the noise was present.

In regards to the Ultra Plus 60, I am doing a major renovation in the spring, doubling the living space in the house and replacing all of the water lines from 1/2" to 3/4". I will have 3-1/2 baths and a jacuzzi tub. So I believe the Ultra Plus 60 is good for the application.

Thanks!

Trevor Baptista

Bingo! Didn't even see that. I bet I have been making the blower work a lot harder then it should!!! I do notice a lot of sound coming from the boiler where the blower is! The length is around 27+' too long to use 3" PVC. I am going to have the installer replace it with 4" PVC ASAP. I won't need the couplings or reducers if the change is made correct?

However, the noise is only present when the unit is space heating and the noise is not present when heating the DHW. If it were the the venting, wouldn't the unit make the noise when ever it ran?

Trevor Baptista

Nope, I don't believe this is the cause of the noise. When the unit is space heating and the boiler temp is reached and the boiler shuts off including the blower and the circs are still running, the noise is still present!