2-PIPE STEAM NEAR BOILER PIPES AND VENT
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Comments
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Those are Trane vents. But that doesn't always mean this is a Trane system- what's on the outlet connections of the radiators?All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
Here is the supply and return side of a typical radiator in the house. They are all like this.0
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That may be a very early Trane system. If so, the return elbow tailpieces (part that screws into the radiator) had two small holes- one at the top for air, one at the bottom for condensate. See page 257 of "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" for an illustration.
If those are just plain return elbows with nothing in them, it's definitely a Tudor system that just happens to have Trane vents.All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
Yes. Those are regular return elbows. So.....replacing these float vents with BELL AND GOSSETT a good idea? Are they possibly old enough to be original to 1923?0
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There are better vents than that. Most of us use Gortons. Measure the length and diameter of your steam mains and we'll tell you what you need.All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
That is my next question. What is the tool you can buy to tell you the diameter of a pipe? I am guessing that it is 3". I know the length is 30 feet in one direction and 36 feet in the other direction. There are two vents.0
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8 1/4"0
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The near boiler piping is as wrong as it can get.DL Mechanical LLC Heating, Cooling and Plumbing 732-266-5386
NJ Master HVACR Lic# 4630
Specializing in Steam Heating, Serving the residents of New Jersey
https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/dl-mechanical-llc
https://m.facebook.com/DL-Mechanical-LLC-315309995326627/?ref=content_filter
I cannot force people to spend money, I can only suggest how to spend it wisely.......0 -
8-1/4 is probably a 2-1/2" pipe. A 30 ft pipe will have about one cu ft of air in it. To completely remove all the air quickly and completely you need at least one Gorton #2 on it and would be better off with 2ea #2's or 1 #2 and 2ea gorton #1's on each main.
The #2 is a large vent so make sure rou have 7" above the mounting point, if things are tight you can build an antler using 3ea #1's for each #2.
BobSmith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
3PSI gauge0 -
My vents are at the bottom of the returns. Does this information change your suggestion?0
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You mean at the "ends" of the returns, right? Post some pics.simon_skove said:My vents are at the bottom of the returns. Does this information change your suggestion?
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
Yes. At the ends of the return in the basement before the piping goes into the Hartford Loop.0
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Photos I have posted shows the vent.0
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You will have to replace the vents with gortons as I said earlier, this should do for a start -
2ea Gorton #2 on the long main
1 ea Gorton #2 and 2 Gorton #1's on the short main
BobSmith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
3PSI gauge0 -
Here is a photo of the old and the new one I bought. I have a second new one. I didn't have a source for the Gorton. The new one is a B&G.
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You are really going to need a lot more venting than that. I just read back through this and it was recommended you use 2 Gorton #2 per main. For equivalent to that in those Hoffman you will need 2 Hoffman 75 for every Gorton #2 so that would work out to 4 Hoffman per main and honestly on the longer main perhaps 5. The rule of thumb is one Gorton #2 for each 20' of 2" pipe and I think 12'-15' of 2 1/2" pipe (Jstar posted that once if memory serves).0
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Anyone notice the dry return piping near the boiler being ok or not? I would reload the pictures of the near boiler piping but this will not let me.0
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Here are some new photos of near boiler return piping. "Return Pipe 3" shows the two "sides" of the return main coming into this vertical pipe in the foreground by way of the two black tees.0
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That piping isn't correct either. There is no Hartford loop and the dry returns really shouldn't join together above the water line like that. Whoever installed that mess really didn't do you any favors.0
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SORRY, one black tee down low and the galv tee up high.0
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If you can't find Gorton vents in your area, Patriot Supply, State Supply or PEX supply should have them on their websites.All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
That original vent is massive man, that thing is like a Gorton 10 last produced in 1929 and discontinued due to it changing regional weather patterns as it vented.
hvacfreak
Mechanical Enthusiast
Burnham MST 396 , 60 oz gauge , Tigerloop , Firomatic Check Valve , Mcdonnell Miller 67 lwco , Danfoss RA2k TRV'sEasyio FG20 Controller
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It's a Trane vacuum vent, whose throughput is similar to the Hoffman #75. That version has a float in it, there was another one that didn't.All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
I still say there's a market for a new higher capacity vent design. Think 2x Gorton #2 at half the height...0
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Could be done, but it's a bit overkill to use a whole PLC for that. A thermal switch triggering a relay to operate the valve would serve just as well. Would probably be slower to re-open the valve than a regular vent, not sure how big a problem that would be, if at all.1890 near-vapor one pipe steam system | Operating pressure: 0.25 oz | 607 sf EDR
Midco LNB-250 Modulating Gas Burner | EcoSteam ES-50 modulating controls | 70 to 300 MBH |
3009 sf | 3 floors | 14 radiators | Utica SFE boiler | 4 mains, 135 ft | Gorton & B&J Big Mouth vents0 -
This is they way I have vented my 2 pipe system at one single location on the dry return for years now. 110v solenoid valve opens wide a 3/4 pipe. I use a PLC for control but also doing other things with that. For simpler control I would just run a 24V relay with the burner and switch 110v to the valve. These valves provide sure closure for vacuum too.Hatterasguy said:
Think dispensing with the vents altogether and using an open pipe controlled by a simple thermistor.SWEI said:I still say there's a market for a new higher capacity vent design. Think 2x Gorton #2 at half the height...
http://www.stcvalve.com/STC-DOWNLOAD/2W160-500.pdf
Available in 24V and with Viton seals.
About the same cost as a pair of Gorton 2's
Of course if you aren't using vacuum and are letting all the air back in between cycles anyway then how about just an open pipe on the dry return period? Not sure how you beat that for capacity or price.1926 1000EDR Mouat 2 pipe vapor system,1957 Bryant Boiler 463,000 BTU input, Natural vacuum operation with single solenoid vent, Custom PLC control0 -
Here is a link to PMJ's gizmo. I really like it; maybe we'll get some more feedback on its operation this season.
http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/152286/electric-solenoid-vent-system#latest
Keep the vacuum.Two-pipe Trane vaporvacuum system; 1466 edr
Twinned, staged Slantfin TR50s piped into 4" header with Riello G400 burners; 240K lead, 200K lag Btus. Controlled by Taco Relay and Honeywell RTH6580WF0 -
Hatterasguy said:
Do you see any issue with using a 24V valve rather than 110V? Makes the wiring easier.PMJ said:
This is they way I have vented my 2 pipe system at one single location on the dry return for years now. 110v solenoid valve opens wide a 3/4 pipe. I use a PLC for control but also doing other things with that. For simpler control I would just run a 24V relay with the burner and switch 110v to the valve. These valves provide sure closure for vacuum too.Hatterasguy said:
Think dispensing with the vents altogether and using an open pipe controlled by a simple thermistor.SWEI said:I still say there's a market for a new higher capacity vent design. Think 2x Gorton #2 at half the height...
http://www.stcvalve.com/STC-DOWNLOAD/2W160-500.pdf
Available in 24V and with Viton seals.
About the same cost as a pair of Gorton 2's
Of course if you aren't using vacuum and are letting all the air back in between cycles anyway then how about just an open pipe on the dry return period? Not sure how you beat that for capacity or price.
I have some concerns about an NC valve. It would be open for nearly all the time the boiler is NOT in operation (once the NC thermistor closes}. Are there any issues with durability when the valve is powered at an 80% duty cycle?
I do not see how you can run an open pipe on the dry return and not suffer the departure of steam from that pipe once it arrives?
I just prefer the higher voltage to run a load at a long distance. Doesn't take much voltage drop to run the solenoid hot. Probably not a factor here really - the relay is cheap - just a personal preference.Hatterasguy said:
Do you see any issue with using a 24V valve rather than 110V? Makes the wiring easier.PMJ said:
This is they way I have vented my 2 pipe system at one single location on the dry return for years now. 110v solenoid valve opens wide a 3/4 pipe. I use a PLC for control but also doing other things with that. For simpler control I would just run a 24V relay with the burner and switch 110v to the valve. These valves provide sure closure for vacuum too.Hatterasguy said:
Think dispensing with the vents altogether and using an open pipe controlled by a simple thermistor.SWEI said:I still say there's a market for a new higher capacity vent design. Think 2x Gorton #2 at half the height...
http://www.stcvalve.com/STC-DOWNLOAD/2W160-500.pdf
Available in 24V and with Viton seals.
About the same cost as a pair of Gorton 2's
Of course if you aren't using vacuum and are letting all the air back in between cycles anyway then how about just an open pipe on the dry return period? Not sure how you beat that for capacity or price.
I have some concerns about an NC valve. It would be open for nearly all the time the boiler is NOT in operation (once the NC thermistor closes}. Are there any issues with durability when the valve is powered at an 80% duty cycle?
I do not see how you can run an open pipe on the dry return and not suffer the departure of steam from that pipe once it arrives?
I'm not sure I understand your NC comment. The NC valve in the simplest control form is unpowered or closed whenever the burner is off. It would be powered with the burner on to vent always when we are trying to push steam into the rads. I don't see any need for a thermistor - see below. I have a pressure switch which opens my valve if the burner is on AND there is no vacuum there.
As far as the open pipe - we are on the dry return where there never should be any steam. I would leave mine open with no vent or valve at all except that I want vacuum to form when my burner goes off. For 2 pipe systems not running vacuum I see no need for anything. If you have steam in the dry return then you have a failed trap which will cause many other problems. But as has been discussed before few of our rads ever have to get close to full of steam to heat our houses and really don't even need traps. I need a working trap on just 2 or 3 really small rads in my system.1926 1000EDR Mouat 2 pipe vapor system,1957 Bryant Boiler 463,000 BTU input, Natural vacuum operation with single solenoid vent, Custom PLC control0 -
Whoa!! Getting back to my vent pipes and the Hartford loop.0
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I was under the impression that your system was 2 pipe and the discussion about venting. I was just pointing out that venting a 2 pipe system can be pretty simple and inexpensive.simon_skove said:Whoa!! Getting back to my vent pipes and the Hartford loop.
1926 1000EDR Mouat 2 pipe vapor system,1957 Bryant Boiler 463,000 BTU input, Natural vacuum operation with single solenoid vent, Custom PLC control0 -
I see. I saw the rad pictures here and just figured we were talking 2 pipe.Hatterasguy said:
Understood about the voltage drop.PMJ said:Hatterasguy said:
Do you see any issue with using a 24V valve rather than 110V? Makes the wiring easier.PMJ said:
This is they way I have vented my 2 pipe system at one single location on the dry return for years now. 110v solenoid valve opens wide a 3/4 pipe. I use a PLC for control but also doing other things with that. For simpler control I would just run a 24V relay with the burner and switch 110v to the valve. These valves provide sure closure for vacuum too.Hatterasguy said:
Think dispensing with the vents altogether and using an open pipe controlled by a simple thermistor.SWEI said:I still say there's a market for a new higher capacity vent design. Think 2x Gorton #2 at half the height...
http://www.stcvalve.com/STC-DOWNLOAD/2W160-500.pdf
Available in 24V and with Viton seals.
About the same cost as a pair of Gorton 2's
Of course if you aren't using vacuum and are letting all the air back in between cycles anyway then how about just an open pipe on the dry return period? Not sure how you beat that for capacity or price.
I have some concerns about an NC valve. It would be open for nearly all the time the boiler is NOT in operation (once the NC thermistor closes}. Are there any issues with durability when the valve is powered at an 80% duty cycle?
I do not see how you can run an open pipe on the dry return and not suffer the departure of steam from that pipe once it arrives?
I just prefer the higher voltage to run a load at a long distance. Doesn't take much voltage drop to run the solenoid hot. Probably not a factor here really - the relay is cheap - just a personal preference.Hatterasguy said:
Do you see any issue with using a 24V valve rather than 110V? Makes the wiring easier.PMJ said:
This is they way I have vented my 2 pipe system at one single location on the dry return for years now. 110v solenoid valve opens wide a 3/4 pipe. I use a PLC for control but also doing other things with that. For simpler control I would just run a 24V relay with the burner and switch 110v to the valve. These valves provide sure closure for vacuum too.Hatterasguy said:
Think dispensing with the vents altogether and using an open pipe controlled by a simple thermistor.SWEI said:I still say there's a market for a new higher capacity vent design. Think 2x Gorton #2 at half the height...
http://www.stcvalve.com/STC-DOWNLOAD/2W160-500.pdf
Available in 24V and with Viton seals.
About the same cost as a pair of Gorton 2's
Of course if you aren't using vacuum and are letting all the air back in between cycles anyway then how about just an open pipe on the dry return period? Not sure how you beat that for capacity or price.
I have some concerns about an NC valve. It would be open for nearly all the time the boiler is NOT in operation (once the NC thermistor closes}. Are there any issues with durability when the valve is powered at an 80% duty cycle?
I do not see how you can run an open pipe on the dry return and not suffer the departure of steam from that pipe once it arrives?
I'm not sure I understand your NC comment. The NC valve in the simplest control form is unpowered or closed whenever the burner is off. It would be powered with the burner on to vent always when we are trying to push steam into the rads. I don't see any need for a thermistor - see below. I have a pressure switch which opens my valve if the burner is on AND there is no vacuum there.
As far as the open pipe - we are on the dry return where there never should be any steam. I would leave mine open with no vent or valve at all except that I want vacuum to form when my burner goes off. For 2 pipe systems not running vacuum I see no need for anything. If you have steam in the dry return then you have a failed trap which will cause many other problems. But as has been discussed before few of our rads ever have to get close to full of steam to heat our houses and really don't even need traps. I need a working trap on just 2 or 3 really small rads in my system.
The NC valve would need to be powered all the time the boiler is not in operation...............in similar manner to when the Gortons open when the temperature drops.
I was referring to one pipe. Always have steam in the dry return..............1926 1000EDR Mouat 2 pipe vapor system,1957 Bryant Boiler 463,000 BTU input, Natural vacuum operation with single solenoid vent, Custom PLC control0 -
We are talking two pipe. But the voltage stuff through me off.0
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Is it a big deal the antler vents are uneven?0
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Not at all.simon_skove said:Is it a big deal the antler vents are uneven?
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Is the relationship of the water level in the glass important compared to the height the dry return ties into the Hartford? See photo.0
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As has been said, the piping isn't correct. Actually the vertical pipe on that dry return should drop to the floor and come back up into the equalizer with a Hartford loop that is always filled with water to prevent steam from enting the return pipe.0
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