2-PIPE STEAM NEAR BOILER PIPES AND VENT

simon_skove · October 2015

Here are the photos of the near boiler pipes. Copper has to go. Header piping is all wrong according to installation instructions. See typical radiator in the house. Also see the float vent, do these things go bad? And the piping at the end of the steam header connecting to the dry return at the bottom confirms this as a Tudor system?

Steamhead · October 2015

Those are Trane vents. But that doesn't always mean this is a Trane system- what's on the outlet connections of the radiators?

simon_skove · October 2015

Here is the supply and return side of a typical radiator in the house. They are all like this.

Steamhead · October 2015

That may be a very early Trane system. If so, the return elbow tailpieces (part that screws into the radiator) had two small holes- one at the top for air, one at the bottom for condensate. See page 257 of "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" for an illustration.

If those are just plain return elbows with nothing in them, it's definitely a Tudor system that just happens to have Trane vents.

simon_skove · October 2015

Yes. Those are regular return elbows. So.....replacing these float vents with BELL AND GOSSETT a good idea? Are they possibly old enough to be original to 1923?

Steamhead · October 2015

There are better vents than that. Most of us use Gortons. Measure the length and diameter of your steam mains and we'll tell you what you need.

simon_skove · October 2015

That is my next question. What is the tool you can buy to tell you the diameter of a pipe? I am guessing that it is 3". I know the length is 30 feet in one direction and 36 feet in the other direction. There are two vents.

BobC · October 2015

Just give us the outside circumference of the main pipe.

Bob

simon_skove · October 2015

8 1/4"

Dave0176 · October 2015

The near boiler piping is as wrong as it can get.

BobC · October 2015

8-1/4 is probably a 2-1/2" pipe. A 30 ft pipe will have about one cu ft of air in it. To completely remove all the air quickly and completely you need at least one Gorton #2 on it and would be better off with 2ea #2's or 1 #2 and 2ea gorton #1's on each main.

The #2 is a large vent so make sure rou have 7" above the mounting point, if things are tight you can build an antler using 3ea #1's for each #2.

Bob

simon_skove · October 2015

My vents are at the bottom of the returns. Does this information change your suggestion?

Steamhead · October 2015

simon_skove said:
My vents are at the bottom of the returns. Does this information change your suggestion?

You mean at the "ends" of the returns, right? Post some pics.

simon_skove · October 2015

Yes. At the ends of the return in the basement before the piping goes into the Hartford Loop.

simon_skove · October 2015

Photos I have posted shows the vent.

BobC · October 2015

You will have to replace the vents with gortons as I said earlier, this should do for a start -

2ea Gorton #2 on the long main

1 ea Gorton #2 and 2 Gorton #1's on the short main

Bob

simon_skove · November 2015

Here is a photo of the old and the new one I bought. I have a second new one. I didn't have a source for the Gorton. The new one is a B&G.

KC_Jones · November 2015

You are really going to need a lot more venting than that. I just read back through this and it was recommended you use 2 Gorton #2 per main. For equivalent to that in those Hoffman you will need 2 Hoffman 75 for every Gorton #2 so that would work out to 4 Hoffman per main and honestly on the longer main perhaps 5. The rule of thumb is one Gorton #2 for each 20' of 2" pipe and I think 12'-15' of 2 1/2" pipe (Jstar posted that once if memory serves).

simon_skove · November 2015

Anyone notice the dry return piping near the boiler being ok or not? I would reload the pictures of the near boiler piping but this will not let me.

simon_skove · November 2015

Here are some new photos of near boiler return piping. "Return Pipe 3" shows the two "sides" of the return main coming into this vertical pipe in the foreground by way of the two black tees.

KC_Jones · November 2015

That piping isn't correct either. There is no Hartford loop and the dry returns really shouldn't join together above the water line like that. Whoever installed that mess really didn't do you any favors.

simon_skove · November 2015

SORRY, one black tee down low and the galv tee up high.

Steamhead · November 2015

If you can't find Gorton vents in your area, Patriot Supply, State Supply or PEX supply should have them on their websites.

hvacfreak2 · November 2015

That original vent is massive man, that thing is like a Gorton 10 last produced in 1929 and discontinued due to it changing regional weather patterns as it vented.

Steamhead · November 2015

It's a Trane vacuum vent, whose throughput is similar to the Hoffman #75. That version has a float in it, there was another one that didn't.

SWEI · November 2015

I still say there's a market for a new higher capacity vent design. Think 2x Gorton #2 at half the height...

SWEI · November 2015

Interesting, though 14 Watts looks a bit on the high side for a power budget. I'm lucky if I see one steam system every three years here, but @MarkS might be interested in tinkering with something like this for the EcoSteam.

MarkS · November 2015

Could be done, but it's a bit overkill to use a whole PLC for that. A thermal switch triggering a relay to operate the valve would serve just as well. Would probably be slower to re-open the valve than a regular vent, not sure how big a problem that would be, if at all.

PMJ · November 2015

Hatterasguy said:

SWEI said:
I still say there's a market for a new higher capacity vent design. Think 2x Gorton #2 at half the height...
Think dispensing with the vents altogether and using an open pipe controlled by a simple thermistor.

http://www.stcvalve.com/STC-DOWNLOAD/2W160-500.pdf

Available in 24V and with Viton seals.

About the same cost as a pair of Gorton 2's

This is they way I have vented my 2 pipe system at one single location on the dry return for years now. 110v solenoid valve opens wide a 3/4 pipe. I use a PLC for control but also doing other things with that. For simpler control I would just run a 24V relay with the burner and switch 110v to the valve. These valves provide sure closure for vacuum too.

Of course if you aren't using vacuum and are letting all the air back in between cycles anyway then how about just an open pipe on the dry return period? Not sure how you beat that for capacity or price.

vaporvac · November 2015

Here is a link to PMJ's gizmo. I really like it; maybe we'll get some more feedback on its operation this season.

http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/152286/electric-solenoid-vent-system#latest

Keep the vacuum.

PMJ · November 2015

Hatterasguy said:

PMJ said:

Hatterasguy said:

SWEI said:
I still say there's a market for a new higher capacity vent design. Think 2x Gorton #2 at half the height...
Think dispensing with the vents altogether and using an open pipe controlled by a simple thermistor.

http://www.stcvalve.com/STC-DOWNLOAD/2W160-500.pdf

Available in 24V and with Viton seals.

About the same cost as a pair of Gorton 2's
This is they way I have vented my 2 pipe system at one single location on the dry return for years now. 110v solenoid valve opens wide a 3/4 pipe. I use a PLC for control but also doing other things with that. For simpler control I would just run a 24V relay with the burner and switch 110v to the valve. These valves provide sure closure for vacuum too.

Of course if you aren't using vacuum and are letting all the air back in between cycles anyway then how about just an open pipe on the dry return period? Not sure how you beat that for capacity or price.
Do you see any issue with using a 24V valve rather than 110V? Makes the wiring easier.

I have some concerns about an NC valve. It would be open for nearly all the time the boiler is NOT in operation (once the NC thermistor closes}. Are there any issues with durability when the valve is powered at an 80% duty cycle?

I do not see how you can run an open pipe on the dry return and not suffer the departure of steam from that pipe once it arrives?

I just prefer the higher voltage to run a load at a long distance. Doesn't take much voltage drop to run the solenoid hot. Probably not a factor here really - the relay is cheap - just a personal preference.

I'm not sure I understand your NC comment. The NC valve in the simplest control form is unpowered or closed whenever the burner is off. It would be powered with the burner on to vent always when we are trying to push steam into the rads. I don't see any need for a thermistor - see below. I have a pressure switch which opens my valve if the burner is on AND there is no vacuum there.

As far as the open pipe - we are on the dry return where there never should be any steam. I would leave mine open with no vent or valve at all except that I want vacuum to form when my burner goes off. For 2 pipe systems not running vacuum I see no need for anything. If you have steam in the dry return then you have a failed trap which will cause many other problems. But as has been discussed before few of our rads ever have to get close to full of steam to heat our houses and really don't even need traps. I need a working trap on just 2 or 3 really small rads in my system.

simon_skove · November 2015

Whoa!! Getting back to my vent pipes and the Hartford loop.

simon_skove · November 2015

And here are my 75s

PMJ · November 2015

simon_skove said:
Whoa!! Getting back to my vent pipes and the Hartford loop.

I was under the impression that your system was 2 pipe and the discussion about venting. I was just pointing out that venting a 2 pipe system can be pretty simple and inexpensive.

PMJ · November 2015

Hatterasguy said:

PMJ said:

Hatterasguy said:

PMJ said:

Hatterasguy said:

SWEI said:
I still say there's a market for a new higher capacity vent design. Think 2x Gorton #2 at half the height...
Think dispensing with the vents altogether and using an open pipe controlled by a simple thermistor.

http://www.stcvalve.com/STC-DOWNLOAD/2W160-500.pdf

Available in 24V and with Viton seals.

About the same cost as a pair of Gorton 2's
This is they way I have vented my 2 pipe system at one single location on the dry return for years now. 110v solenoid valve opens wide a 3/4 pipe. I use a PLC for control but also doing other things with that. For simpler control I would just run a 24V relay with the burner and switch 110v to the valve. These valves provide sure closure for vacuum too.

Of course if you aren't using vacuum and are letting all the air back in between cycles anyway then how about just an open pipe on the dry return period? Not sure how you beat that for capacity or price.
Do you see any issue with using a 24V valve rather than 110V? Makes the wiring easier.

I have some concerns about an NC valve. It would be open for nearly all the time the boiler is NOT in operation (once the NC thermistor closes}. Are there any issues with durability when the valve is powered at an 80% duty cycle?

I do not see how you can run an open pipe on the dry return and not suffer the departure of steam from that pipe once it arrives?

Hatterasguy said:

PMJ said:

Hatterasguy said:

SWEI said:
I still say there's a market for a new higher capacity vent design. Think 2x Gorton #2 at half the height...
Think dispensing with the vents altogether and using an open pipe controlled by a simple thermistor.

http://www.stcvalve.com/STC-DOWNLOAD/2W160-500.pdf

Available in 24V and with Viton seals.

About the same cost as a pair of Gorton 2's
This is they way I have vented my 2 pipe system at one single location on the dry return for years now. 110v solenoid valve opens wide a 3/4 pipe. I use a PLC for control but also doing other things with that. For simpler control I would just run a 24V relay with the burner and switch 110v to the valve. These valves provide sure closure for vacuum too.

Of course if you aren't using vacuum and are letting all the air back in between cycles anyway then how about just an open pipe on the dry return period? Not sure how you beat that for capacity or price.
Do you see any issue with using a 24V valve rather than 110V? Makes the wiring easier.

I have some concerns about an NC valve. It would be open for nearly all the time the boiler is NOT in operation (once the NC thermistor closes}. Are there any issues with durability when the valve is powered at an 80% duty cycle?

I do not see how you can run an open pipe on the dry return and not suffer the departure of steam from that pipe once it arrives?
I just prefer the higher voltage to run a load at a long distance. Doesn't take much voltage drop to run the solenoid hot. Probably not a factor here really - the relay is cheap - just a personal preference.

I'm not sure I understand your NC comment. The NC valve in the simplest control form is unpowered or closed whenever the burner is off. It would be powered with the burner on to vent always when we are trying to push steam into the rads. I don't see any need for a thermistor - see below. I have a pressure switch which opens my valve if the burner is on AND there is no vacuum there.

As far as the open pipe - we are on the dry return where there never should be any steam. I would leave mine open with no vent or valve at all except that I want vacuum to form when my burner goes off. For 2 pipe systems not running vacuum I see no need for anything. If you have steam in the dry return then you have a failed trap which will cause many other problems. But as has been discussed before few of our rads ever have to get close to full of steam to heat our houses and really don't even need traps. I need a working trap on just 2 or 3 really small rads in my system.
Understood about the voltage drop.

The NC valve would need to be powered all the time the boiler is not in operation...............in similar manner to when the Gortons open when the temperature drops.

I was referring to one pipe. Always have steam in the dry return..............

I see. I saw the rad pictures here and just figured we were talking 2 pipe.

simon_skove · November 2015

We are talking two pipe. But the voltage stuff through me off.

simon_skove · November 2015

Is it a big deal the antler vents are uneven?

Fred · November 2015

simon_skove said:
Is it a big deal the antler vents are uneven?

Not at all.

SWEI · November 2015

MarkS said:
Could be done, but it's a bit overkill to use a whole PLC for that.

I was thinking along the lines of an new feature for existing or potential EcoSteam customers.

simon_skove · November 2015

Is the relationship of the water level in the glass important compared to the height the dry return ties into the Hartford? See photo.

Fred · November 2015

As has been said, the piping isn't correct. Actually the vertical pipe on that dry return should drop to the floor and come back up into the equalizer with a Hartford loop that is always filled with water to prevent steam from enting the return pipe.

2-PIPE STEAM NEAR BOILER PIPES AND VENT

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