Need some "Heating Help"

VP

Here's the scenario. 3 Unit apartment building has basement fire, and the 160,000 btu boiler is destroyed. We get called in to install 2 boilers (apartments) and furnace/ac for the commercial space. Property owners wanted cast iron 80% boilers.

Performed a manual J on each apartment as per our usual practice, utilizing 0 degree ODDT instead of the 4 degrees ASHRAE lists for our area. Found baseboard to be very old, dirty, and some fins bent over. Explained to customer the baseboard should be changed, and suggested high output. Nope, not at this time. Pulled permits for the job. Sized the boiler for the heat loss of 40,000btus ( oversized but next size down would be too small). For each apartment, we Installed a 70,000btu , 83% cast iron boiler and 40 gallon indirect water heater on priority (one bathroom and kitchen sink each apartment). Typical install we have done a thousand times.

Now the fun. We pass inspections, and proceed to start up the boilers, during the winter (but not a very cold day) and begin heating up the apartments. It was late, so landlord wanted to shut off the systems for the night (building still empty, and water drained down). Next day landlord shows up to work on the apartments. Turns heat up to 70+, and calls us that afternoon to tell us the heat isn't working. We go and check. Boiler is cycling, baseboard is hot, water temp is 180, 25 degree delta T. His complaint is that the apartment is only up to 64 degrees. Yeah, and? Its an old brick building, built in early 1900's. Its plaster and lathe. Its cold outside, and inside. He says it was 40 degrees in the building that morning. I think we were doing good with the temp rise.

Landlord disagrees. Says we undersized the boilers. I say no, they are sized fine, its just going to take time. Let it run for a day, and then see how it is. Nope, no good for the landlord. We showed him the next day (even colder outside, nearly design), after he again shut the heat off for the night, that the boiler shuts off on temperature. Boiler can make temperature no problem, even in these conditions . No good he says, because after 5 hrs of running the apartment is still only 60 degrees (20 degree rise). We turn water temp up to 200 to prove a point. Now the apartment heated up to setpoint only a few hours later. I explained that the boiler btu didn't change, we changed the baseboard output.

Still not good enough. He calls in other HVAC companies (who informed me of their visits, they are friendly competitors) and they look at the system. They found nothing wrong. They told him to let boilers run for a few days. That boilers are sized to MAINTAIN 70 degrees, and there is no time limit for it to get from 40 to 70. Still not what the landlord wanted to hear. He can't rent these apartments out knowing they cant heat and tenants will be complaining.

Landlord calls mechanical engineering firm. The engineer says (without performing a manual J mind you) that the boiler could probably heat the apartment, but its definitely undersized to handle the indirect and the heating simultaneously. AHA! Landlord found someone to tell him what he wants to hear. Engineer says we need to install a 140,000 btu boiler for EACH apartment. WAY oversized, no? All kinds of issues with this idea, as most you can figure, plus additional issues that are related to this particular job with installing larger boilers , issues that I don't want to be responsible for. Especially since I should know better as a Master HVAC license holder.

So, if you have read this far, my questions are:

1. Is there any place in writing, on what the code, or standard, is for sizing boilers with indirects? I checked NY energy code, plumbing code, mechanical code, manual J and manual N books. Can't find it. I know what we do and what most of you on this wall do (size for heat). Other than a long term practice, where does this come from, exactly?

2. Is there any place in writing, on what the requirement is for the time it takes to raise a living space 30 degrees? I can't find it. The codes just say that the system is sized to maintain 72 degrees in a living space.

3. Are we wrong? I would like to think not, but at this point these guys have me doubting myself. What would you all do? Obviously the customer is holding the last payment and doesn't want to pay for the increase cost of the larger equipment.

Thanks for taking the time to read through all this, I'm just frustrated, and looking for advice. Any help is appreciated.

Bruce

kcopp

If you did the math then you are fine... LL is fool.... cant argue w/ a fool.
IF the boiler has the required BTU or more the amount of baseboard that is there will be the determining factor. A bigger boiler will not make a difference.
ME refers to this as "Thermal Constipation"...
If he wants faster response time he needs to fix/add to the baseboard.
I had a similar situation where the LL in a commercial space wanted to set the temp back 10+ degrees in some areas and wanted to get the rooms back up to temp in <1 hr.
I never ended up doing the job.

JohnNY

Why not do an EDR calculation on the fin tube and show the potential system output at design boiler water temperature(s)? This will show the maximum BTUs the system will be capable of transferring from the heating medium to the surrounding air.
I'm willing to bet your 70MBH will far exceed that value.

As far as combining loads to determine output, that's a fool's task. There is no reason whatsoever to size a boiler for space heating and domestic water heating simultaneously given the abundant availability of priority control options we've got available to us.

The landlord is expressing concerns about something he clearly does not understand. Educate him without losing your understanding of his position. More so than by quoting Codes, you'll win his trust in you as the professional.
I've had to defend myself to engineers in the past and even recently. Engineers don't care what a client spends to make a system work. That's not their job. Present your numbers and your design strategy, and since it will make sense, they'll respect you as a specialist in the field.

I wish you luck and offer whatever support I can.
You're in a tough spot with this one.

Mark Eatherton

Bruce, It sounds as though you have done more than full due diligence. I concur with your assessments and findings. The LL's expectations are outrageous.

Maybe he is used to a forced air system, in which case this scenario (50 to 70 F in short order) might be possible, but even if it were, the occupants would still be uncomfortable at an air temperature of 70 degrees F due to a lower mean radiant temperature. It comes down to mass influence. Once all of the connected mass gets up to operating temperature, the room will be fine. BTW, there are no code standards for recovery of a given space over time. Too many variables, all of which would lead to an oversized system, which is not conducive to efficient operation.

As it pertains to DHW production, common sense (for the same reason explained immediately above) is NEVER sized to handle simultaneous loads, unless you are an inexperienced mechanical engineer who has a vested interest in selling oversized equipment. As JohnNY pointed out, the DHW loads are typically prioritized on a time limited basis for the purpose of providing DHW. The space heating system would be off for such a short period of time, by the time the occupants realized the system was off, it would be back on again shortly thereafter.

Stand your ground. Provide a guarantee that once the system gets up to "normal" operating conditions that it will be capable of maintaining "code" required temperatures, but also as JohnNY stated, look at it from his uneducated perspective. His expectations are out of line, but his experience may be with a forced air system, and not a hot water baseboard system.

Double check all of your math so that you are comfortable giving a written guarantee of operation, and provide a written guarantee of performance, and move on.

FWIW, in my 30+ years of experience, even on systems that I personally designed, loaded and installed, I have NEVER seen a hot water BB system, or ANY hydronic system for that matter running at 100% of capacity, even at design condition. This is because of the influence of all of the connected mass. Once charged, it too contributes to the heating load.

CYA in paper, and stand your ground.

ME

SWEI

JohnNY said:

Why not do an EDR calculation on the fin tube and show the potential system output at design boiler water temperature(s)? This will show the maximum BTUs the system will be capable of transferring from the heating medium to the surrounding air.

This really is step one.


It wasn't quite clear to be reading the original post: Your heat loss calc came in at 40k for each apartment?

If so, even using the engineering firm's flawed logic, their math doesn't work:

Standard electric tank type water heaters only have 15,300 BTU's of output and provide sufficient hot water for many one- and two-bath dwellings.

VP

Thanks a lot for the responses! All very much appreciated and reassuring. To follow up on a few items:

kcopp said:

If he wants faster response time he needs to fix/add to the baseboard.
I had a similar situation where the LL in a commercial space wanted to set the temp back 10+ degrees in some areas and wanted to get the rooms back up to temp in

Yep, I pointed that out in the beginning after the MJ was performed. We actually replaced a length of BB in the bathroom of one apartment with HiCap, and that room heated faster and nicer, and that was actually the end of the loop. So right there I thought we proved the point.

JohnNY said:

Why not do an EDR calculation on the fin tube and show the potential system output at design boiler water temperature(s)? This will show the maximum BTUs the system will be capable of transferring from the heating medium to the surrounding air.
I'm willing to bet your 70MBH will far exceed that value.


The landlord is expressing concerns about something he clearly does not understand. Educate him without losing your understanding of his position. More so than by quoting Codes, you'll win his trust in you as the professional.
I've had to defend myself to engineers in the past and even recently. Engineers don't care what a client spends to make a system work. That's not their job. Present your numbers and your design strategy, and since it will make sense, they'll respect you as a specialist in the field.

I wish you luck and offer whatever support I can.
You're in a tough spot with this one.

We did show him the potential baseboard output and explained to him what was going on. I thought at that point he was getting it.
We have tried, nicely, to educate the LL, but, he and his brother know way more than us professionals apparently. For example, "Who the hell puts circulators on the supply?. They need to be moved to the return side, because the research we did says thats how to do it". That was day #2 on the job.....should have known then what we were in for. We even brought in the boiler rep. Yeah, that didn't go well. Turned into an argument between him and the LL. Sorry I went that route LOL. This will most likely end up in court, so that is why I am looking at codes.

Hatterasguy said:

VP said:

Boiler is cycling, baseboard is hot, water temp is 180, 25 degree delta T.

A bit curious about the DT.

While 25 is typically close to ideal, it does leave quite a few BTU's on the table with regard to distribution.

Any possibility of reducing this value to something between 10 and 15? The boiler will run fine at this operating point and the space will definitely climb faster.

I would determine how to get the DT down to 10, adjust the boiler to 200°F, clean all the fins, and make another test. The performance increase with these changes might be sufficient to close the issue. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

At the time I was seeing a 25 DT, it was still quite cold in the apartments. System hadn't been running too long at that point. When we raised the temp to 200, and did get the apartment up to setpoint, we were at 15. But, it didn't close the deal because "no boiler or circulators can handle running at 200 degrees consistantly". The rep tried to explain to them that yes, their boiler can do that no problem to no avail.

Mark, thanks for the input. For the commercial space we installed a furnace with a/c. The unit was a 2 stage, 100mbtu, and was sized to drive the a/c. Well, "that space heats up fast". No ****. I asked what the LL had at home, and he has baseboard. I then asked does he set his thermostat back to 40 degrees at night? Well of course not, but it does heat up faster, "because my boiler if bigger". I asked if he thought his tenants would ever set back their thermostats that far. "I can't take that chance". I can't win.

We checked the math a few times, and were willing to guarantee our work and the results of the system. But he refuses to get to that point, just wants bigger boilers. So, with that, I refuse to guarantee better results, since of course bigger boilers will not heat up the space faster.

SWEI said:

It wasn't quite clear to be reading the original post: Your heat loss calc came in at 40k for each apartment?



Yes, that is correct. Ok, 39k and change for one, and 40k and change for the other. There is 72' and 70' BB respectively.


So, he refuses to pay. Wants to sue. I know if I change the boilers on my dime, it will not give him what he wants, and of course that will be our fault too. Oh, and the engineer from the firm who looked at this, well I installed a radiant system in his house. But he sized and provided the boiler. Can you guess which side of the sizing fence it was on?

Bruce

nicholas bonham-carter

I would think any codes will be in lockstep with the manufacturer's instructions. Can you find anything on their website about boiler sizing and proper operation, at a constant temperature, which supports your sizing?
SlantFin's heat loss will even suggest the proper boiler, and baseboard for the building. Maybe showing him (or the judge) that would bring him around.
Putting the controls in the basement, with a sensor in the apartments would prevent any fiddling hands on the thermostat, using a Honeywell Visionpro.
Maybe he will even come here looking for justification for his ideas.--NBC

kcopp

What town/ city is this.? I want to steer clear away from this guy....

SWEI

VP said:

heat loss calc came in at 40k for each apartment?

39k and change for one, and 40k and change for the other. There is 72' and 70' BB respectively.

Are those gross or net lengths? Either way, the limits are what they are.

he refuses to pay. Wants to sue.

If you play your cards right, he won't get very far. A letter from the baseboard manufacturer stating that X feet of our Model Y baseboard will dissipate Z BTUs at a 200°F SWT should take care of it.

VP

kcopp said:

What town/ city is this.? I want to steer clear away from this guy....

Newburgh, NY. He is an eye Dr. to boot.

VP

Are those gross or net lengths? Either way, the limits are what they are.

Those were net lengths. The exterior walls were wrapped, and there was bare piping that could of been changed to fin tube.

Rich_49

A call to the code enforcement department yielded the following information .

Between September 15 and May 15 indoor temps must be maintained at 68* F in dwellings . Here in NJ that would be 65* at night and 68* during the day . It seems the Town of Newburgh's opinion is that your system is just fine but should not be setback by a landlord . If a tenant does so that is his problem . Moaning and crying about slow recovery from a 25 - 30* setback is ludicrous .

Do a little experiment , disconnect the thermostats and hide a couple bulb sensors , 65* or 68* , let them control the apartments and let him think he is doing it with the thermostats . This should get him to STFU and get you paid maybe .

He has no standing and you are quite probably not in an actionable position . If you had a City inspector subpoenaed his testimony would support your install .

Good Luck

Mark Eatherton

Bruce, I suspect this guy had you in his cross hairs before you even delivered a contract. Shameful. Professionally speaking, I'd consider asking the local police department their advice. He's using YOUR equipment, and hasn't paid for it for reason that are not honorable nor ethical. If you can convince them of that, then move in with a crew and quickly extract the heat sources and components that are readily accessible and easily removed. Might not even be a bad idea to have the local press on hand... If he's in a practice, I seriously doubt he wants to have his name negatively spread around town.

Another possible option is a "Plumbers lien". There is usually a lockable stop cock on the gas meter serving the building. Turn the gas off (with the local utility's observation and permission" until which time the equipment that is installed is paid for.

Another possible option, if you haven't received the local AHJ's final inspection, would be to claim that the equipment had not been properly commissioned, and that to avoid possible CO poisoning or worse, the fuel supply had been cut off. You won't provide final commissioning until you have been paid for your services rendered to date.

People like this need to be reprimanded for their actions. If you don't, he's going to continue to screw people and think he can get away with it.

Good luck with this situation...

ME

Tinman

I agree with what Mark said except the part about removing the equipment. About 20 years ago, I had a GC who owed me a considerable amount of money. My intent was to cut loose the new, never used condensing units outside so I could recover a little bit of my losses. Before acting, I asked the local police department if I could get in any legal trouble by doing so. They said if I did, and were caught, I would be arrested for theft. They said once it's installed, it's theirs. My lien rights had already expired and I ended up eating 14K!
Maybe your local police department interprets the law differently?

Charlie from wmass

Back in the day my father had a landlord that didn't want to pay for the new hundred gallon water heater that was hooked up storage tank booster pumps all that other fun stuff . He simply showed up 4 o'clock in the afternoon with this help her drained everything down cutting all loose and put it in his truck. I do miss those days.

Rich_49

What make and model boilers were used and whose indirects ?

Use the manufacturers manuals as a tool in your defense . Not many of those publications show return side placement of circs anymore , a few sure but not many .

You asked , " 2. Is there any place in writing, on what the requirement is for the time it takes to raise a living space 30 degrees? I can't find it. The codes just say that the system is sized to maintain 72 degrees in a living space. "

The operable word here and the one that will get you your payment is , " MAINTAIN " and as stated in my previous post you must maintain 68* in Newburgh . Maintain does not allow for setback or anything else . Put in the bulb sensors under the guise of working on the system and record the results . He does not , again have any standing . Require a Newburgh Code Official to testify under a subpoena and produce your results . There is not a judge that will find in his favor so long as he follows laws of evidence .

Ask the court to make damages punitive as opposed to compensatory , this action will not allow him to not pay restitution without fear of arrest and he will not be able to include monies owed in any bankruptcy proceedings . You may also contact the AMA or other medical association and ask if he has any ethics violations or judgements . They may even be interested in how he has handled this as it goes to his character , often times medical boards and organizations do not approve of these things .

You could also contact the insurance company whom more than likely made a payout to him if he made a claim for this . They may tell you if or how much he received for the portion of the job that you performed . Use every tool at your disposal and ones that you did not know , make him miserable and make him spend money in defense of his actions . You have lost money , now it is his turn .

He cannot make the case that your heating system does not work because even where set back is accepted and encouraged it is usually only 5 - 10* , not 30* . Fact is , he does not know if your system heats the space properly because he has not allowed it to in a way that is reasonable for a dwelling .

What was the cause of the original fire ? Do you know what the determination was ?

VP

Except for installing new equipment, he isn't going to let me into the building, especially to do any more "experiments". Newburgh police will not help in a matter such as this, but I do like the idea of the plumbers lock on the gas meter. I am going to check with my contacts at our gas company to see if its feesible. I am also going to consider all of your suggestions We have filed a mechanics lien on the property. So I don't think he will be able to rent out the units to any section 8 tenants, as NYS checks the place out before approval. And I know that was his plan, as well as refinance the place once done, which he can't do wit the lien.

The story I got regarding the fire: There was a Greasy Spoon on the main floor. The owner had some "issues" with the LL. I don't know for what, but he got pissed off , and through gasoline on the water heater. Supposedly to get out of the lease and close down the restaurant that apparently was in financial trouble. I have heard though, it was never proved, and there is rumors that the brother of the LL was the one who threw the gasoline; to get the tenant out of there. But I can not confirm any of this. Anyway, speaking of insurance, I am sure that they would love to hear how the LL had wanted me to write up two proposals for "unseen damages" on the upper floors to facilitate getting money for new bathrooms and kitchens.......

As far as taking back equipment, that is illegal here. I know of others who got caught, not good. Seems that once equipment is installed at a property, even if not paid for, it becomes the owners property. I get why the laws are there to protect homeowners, lets face it, there are a ton of bad contractors out there (in every field). But its a shame that there really are no enforceable laws to help the good contractors that are being screwed by the public every day. I want to start an "Angies list" for contractors, where we get to rate homeowners and business owners as to their worthiness. I know, its a pipedream....

Bruce

Rich_49

The 2 proposal question should have told you what type individual you were dealing with . Would have sent me away for sure .

Long ago when I performed work for other contractors from bid through completion , builders used to approach me constantly to just cut out that middleman and do the work for them directly . This always made me laugh as I would ask them if they thought it would be less money eliminating that middleman . The answer was always that they did think that . Insulting right off the bat . I always told those contractors about those discussions so they were aware they were working for what I call SCUM . These folks are everywhere , you must listen and examine every sentence of every discussion .

There is probably an insurance investigator out there dying to hear what you have to say about your dealings and discussions with this **** .

VP

Hatterasguy said:

VP said:

We have filed a mechanics lien on the property.

That's all you need. You will eventually get paid. I believe you can move to enforce the lien but it's usually not worth the legal expense.

You can make his life miserable by taking him to small claims court for the balance owed (presumably within SC limits). The cost is pennies and you simply need an engineer or somebody well qualified to testify for you. He's got to bring the same...........and it's highly unlikely that he will pay the necessary fees to get that accomplished.

In SC, it would be exceptionally easy. A document showing the heatloss of the house and a document showing the size of the boiler. Judges in SC make decisions very quickly and are not going to read a thesis on the system design.

As a corporation, In NYS we can't take him to small claims, no matter what the amount. He can take us, but the amount is too large.

My understanding is that a Manual J by an accepted method (we use Wrightsoft) will hold up in court. Anyone have any real life experience in this? He is threatening to sue us because of the loss he has suffered with not being able to rent out the apartments, because they don't heat, and the cost of the engineer.

Tinman

I've read most of the posts but didn't review all of them. If it were me, I would be speaking to my attorney already. You're going to come out on top in this but you need to get ahead of this and show this tool that you won't be intimidated.

Mark Eatherton

There is a common term in legal parlance called "Standard of Care". Sounds to me like your job was in complete compliance with the industry "Standard of Care".

Document E V E R Y T H I N G in writing, because if it isn't in writing, in the eyes of the court it is hearsay, and technically doesn't exist beyond proof of reasonable doubt.

If you had oversized the heat source, the results would be the same, because there isn't enough emitter to put out the capacity of the oversized appliance, and the result would be short cycling (well known industry phenomena) and short life expectancy for all connected components. Thermal dynamics isn't just a good idea, it's an unavoidable law... Breaking it is not a good idea.

Stand your ground...

The mental costs to you and your company far exceed the costs of recovery. I'd see if you can recover THOSE costs from the LL as well. He needs to be taught a lesson.

I know here in Colorado, our state legislature has enacted a law that if you are professionally licensed by the state, and are found to be guilty of doing anything unethical, you can lose your license. I'd check with your forward thinking state and see if they have the same clause. Here, even getting a DUI is considered adequate grounds for losing your professional license...

ME

VP

I have some work to do. Thanks all for the input.

Bruce

Pumpguy

Please let us know how this all works out. Those of us in the business are finding this thread very interesting and informative.

Best of luck.

4Johnpipe

You can try to file a "theft of services" report with the police. You have a passed inspection. He is not a professional and has no grounds to stand on.

Read this...

Paul48

"As far as combining loads to determine output, that's a fool's task. There is no reason whatsoever to size a boiler for space heating and domestic water heating simultaneously given the abundant availability of priority control options we've got available to us".


Use the fact that priority controls exist, to your advantage. The manufacturers understand that you don't size for combined load.

Fred

Just a Home owner perspective here. If I were you, I'd make sure I sent this jerk a registered letter ASAP, clearly stating when this job was completed so that you have a record that demonstrates that the install was completed and he started complaining about not being able to get a 30 or 40 degree temp swing, in 2 or 3 hours, and/or maintaining temp before he even had tenants in the building. It makes his intent pretty clear, in my opinion. I also think any judge would look at that letter as an indication that no one, in their right mind would expect a 30 degree temp swing, in a couple hours, in Feb. or March, with a properly sized appliance. A judge would be able to personally relate to that from their own life experiences. This guy isn't able to demonstrate a flawed system or installation, at this point. Take advantage of that fact, as well and document it.

VP

4Johnpipe said:

You can try to file a "theft of services" report with the police. You have a passed inspection. He is not a professional and has no grounds to stand on.

Read this...

Very interesting read... I have not seen this before thanks for sharing.

Pumpguy said:

Please let us know how this all works out. Those of us in the business are finding this thread very interesting and informative.

Best of luck.

After all the help you guys have provided, that is the least I can do. To be continued.....

Bruce

tim smith

I say get the baseboard mfr specs for output of radiation at 180, submit that to him, showing that you ibr rating of boiler well exceeds the output rating of baseboards. Also that the boilers output well exceeds the exchange rate of the indirect. The room should be up to temp if he has enough radiation when tenants get up and shower. The max time that indirect takes to heat up is probably 30 mins. You are meeting all the requirements for a properly (not oversized, short cycling) system. If I rememeber right it is not suggested that a space be turned down anymore than 10 degrees anyway, so his shutting off system and then trying to bring back up fast is unrealistic and unneeded.

Pumpguy

Anything new to report on this saga?

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

I pay a lot of money for my liability insurance and they cover me for this kind of situation, going so far as to pay me what my losses are and going to court to represent me, either as a defendant or plaintiff. I've only had to use them twice in 36 years and the lawyers they have on retainer won both times.

If you have good insurance, give them a call and take a load off your mind. Keep your mind free to do the work you do best.

We are all behind you!

Paul Pollets

A mechanics lien is a priority lien and will affect the credit rating of the LL. The lien will have to be satisfied before any monies are loaned to the LL's company. Liens usually have to be renewed as required. I have always vetted my customers and have specific requirements for payment spelled out in the signed contract. Before commissioning the boilers, I'd make sure payment was made to at least 90%. Commercial accounts are more difficult to handle than a residential. If they don't pay or are slow pay, you wind up financing the work performed.

Dave_132

In my forty years of self employment I have had only one situation where I had to use the courts to resolve the issue. It was a very similar scenario. It was very cold, the boiler had failed and we needed to act quickly. I measured all the heat emitters, took in to account the building envelope , and moved forward. The day after installation the customer called and stated that they could not hold the temperature to the desired set point. It was then that I discovered that I had walked into a mine field. The drapes moved when the wind blew, I could see light around all the outside doors not to mention a dog door that blew in the breeze. They insisted that I had installed an undersized boiler and that it would not meet the requirements. I then explained that given the feet of baseboard, this was the extent of what they could expect unless changes were made to tighten up the home. They decided not to pay me, therefore I took them to court. I took the time to document everything and had a prepared statement . I presented everything exactly as it was prior and after the work was done. The court ruled in my favor and ordered the defendant to pay the amount due within 30 days including court costs. I understand the situation you are in and I wish you the best. Finally write down everything and put it in chronological order.