Cracks in Clay Liner

Kjmass1

I had my chimney cleaned for the first time since owning and he mentioned there were some cracks in my clay flue liner. He patched what he could but suggested instead of dropping $2k for a stainless insert, to put that money towards a new boiler which will eventually need to be replaced. Since the boiler will direct vent out the side of the house, what happens to the hot water venting? Does it get tied in to the boiler or does it remain in the chimney?

Will CO2 detectors detect any gases that may leak in to the house after they have been burned? Just trying to get a handle on how serious this is...and assuming it's worse in the winter when the boiler is running than now with just the pilot light and hot water.

CO2 detectors are on order asap though...

Thanks.

Bob Bona_4

Sounds like a good plan. Incorporate an indirect fired water heater working off the new boiler as a zone in your project, then only the boiler will need venting.

j a_2

C o 2?

Mikey Lasagna

Becareful with those chimney sweeps, they will line every chimney if they can whether it needs it or not. Did you see the "cracks" ? If it could wait, I wouldn't line if you can get away with it and get the new boiler... .... Even when they line it, they barely look at the structure of it. So while it has a new liner, the motar is deteriorating, bricks are loose and it's not stable.

Kjmass1

He took a picture for me after he patched a little section above damper. The house is pushing 75 years old...what's the life on those clay tiles?

Carbon monoxide detectors haven't detected anything but I haven't run boiler either.

Mikey Lasagna

If that's a picture of your tile there isn't any life left, what did he patch it with?

Kjmass1

He added some of that heat resistant compound as a temporary stop gap.

So yes...missing some bricks there. Not good I'm assuming?

Mikey Lasagna

No it's not good, and patching it with furnace cement isn't good either because you can never get it as smooth as the tile, which gives soot a place to stck to.

Steamhead

It needs a stainless steel liner. No getting around it.

j a_2

From your wording this is gas, correct? If, the chimney is as bad as you/he says, then you are in more than need of a liner...As I have seen guite a bit of clay sections giving way and dropping right down over the breach, even if you were to line it that may not be the best solution...Should you line it,and depending on a few factors s/s is not always required,aluminum is a cheaper option.. If the chimney guy thought it was that bad he would of red taged it....Maybe then you can roll the dice,monitor it till your ready to replace boiler...Look at a power vented cast iron boiler with either an indirect or a hybird water heater....

Kjmass1

Thanks everyone. Yes- natural gas. The picture was before he applied some of that compound. I'll continue to monitor it but I think the long term solution is to move to a power vented solution with a new boiler. Glad I had the chimney cleaned and he brought it to my attention.

j a_2

Great, come back when your ready to make the change....Things change rapidly out here these days...

Steamhead

I wouldn't be so quick to go to a power-vented boiler- it adds some moving parts to the job which always seem to break down in January. A chimney has no moving parts, so I'd line it and let it continue to function.

Kjmass1

Can you elaborate a little bit?

j a_2

I believe he would rather see you use the chimney... I guess it comes down to you and your installer as to what is your best option...Sometimes site unseen is a best guess based on the information provided and how we interepet it....Personally I have installed many a power vented boilers with no more a failure rate than any other cast iron boiler...But maybe he sees different...They are very common in this area....Anyway good luck

j a_2

I am not sure of how many more moving parts they add...other than a blower assembly, as opposed to a non power vented standard chimney vented that has a vent dampner that has been in the past very problematic, in fact there was recalls as I remember on certain ones...

Kjmass1

Cool- good to know thank you. Hoping to get a couple more years out of my boiler but mass save rebates and now this make it a little more attractive to upgrade.

Steamhead

We have several power-vented boilers in our customer base that were installed or converted (by others) because of chimney problems. We get more service calls on these because of the added complication. They just don't seem to be as reliable as chimney-vented ones.

Accordingly, we advise our customers to maintain their chimneys, some of which have lasted 100 years or more, and will continue to function well into the future once they are properly lined. You can't argue with simplicity.

j a_2

When I speak of power vented boilers I am referring to similar to the Burnham p v models . not a power vent kit added on as aftermarket... I don't like them either..I to prefer a chimney, if I can be assured its in proper condition...
Even a lined chimney can. Have a section of clay let go , slide down then you have issue's.... But then again it comes down to how much creed you put into the shimney report.....Did he drop a camera all the way down. And show you the film?

Kjmass1

No- he just saw it while he was doing his cleaning. The second flue for the boiler doesn't have a trap door in the basement so he couldn't evaluate the condition of the clay liner.

The chimney never had a cap so that probably has made things worse over the years. I put one on at the same time. Exterior of bricking looks good with minimal repointing needed. 75 years old.

Next step is probably a camera inspection.

Kjmass1

Thank you that is very helpful. I'd would be good to get a couple estimates on the new liner. Great to get a lot of input from your guys, thanks!

j a_2

Are u in Mass, if so I will.fwd you to be who I consider the best in the business as far as chimney work....He is as well a lic. Gas fitter.

Kjmass1

Yes- outside of Boston. DM me that would be great. Thanks.

j a_2

I am in Milton email japlumbing38@comcast.net

Henry

Stay away from an aluminium liner. It can and probably will tear. Get ONLY a S/S liner which comes as a kit and has a certification tab. If it does not come witht the little certification tab, it is not certified to be used by a gas appliance. Some quick and cheap guys use ventilation flexible ducts.

j a_2

Wow. I have never seen ventilation ducts used? Who and where have u seen them? Aluminum liners are very common and made by very good companys....As well as listed ...Can u elaborate more, so we can understand

Kjmass1

Is it true I need a different liner for 83% afue boilers vs more efficient ones? Don't want to do it 2x.

j a_2

Yes S/S is the better metal, no argument there....So why is aluminum a listed liner and been so for so many years.... Please unconfuse me

j a_2

That's about as confusing as a power vent boiler has more moving parts than a non power vent

j a_2

Whoever your installer is will be the one to make that decision based on the equipment installed....and as well as all local codes....As said before sight unseen is difficult to give a direct answer. When u do have a proposal feel free to inform us.....But please do not ask us about pricing...That's not what we are here for... Some people don't get that

Steamhead

j a said:

Yes S/S is the better metal, no argument there....So why is aluminum a listed liner and been so for so many years.... Please unconfuse me

The problem with aluminum is that if you put it in a chimney that has had a coal or oil fired unit connected to it, the sulfur residue will eat it up. Chimney contractors around here typically will not use aluminum liners unless a chimney has only ever served gas-fired equipment- and then not always. When we make recommendations, we never even mention aluminum except to say it's not an option.

j a said:

That's about as confusing as a power vent boiler has more moving parts than a non power vent

Because it does. Figure in the fan and motor, and the extra safety switches that a power-vented unit needs to meet Code. I don't count stack dampers here because their bypass switches let us put a unit back in service without having to order an OEM replacement part and wait several days to get it (though we do stock the standard Field/Effikal stack damper motor).

j a_2

Understand ur opinion. But when it comes down to it its up to the installer to make that choice based on the sirustion.... There are so many different situations.....Don't u agree

j a_2

I always agree on your steam answers and beyond respect them. But not always other issues and that's fine as its its generally about local codes and being we are in different locations things are different.... I always enjoy and learn from ur thinking

j a_2

You sir are of the best when it comes to steam

Steamhead

True, but when we tell them about the increased maintenance costs they usually go with the chimney. Especially since the company who would make the money from the extra service calls tells them that. We don't think we're serving our customers' best interests if we push power venting.

Mikey Lasagna

Kjmass1 said:

The chimney never had a cap so that probably has made things worse over the years. I put one on at the same time. Exterior of bricking looks good with minimal repointing needed. 75 years old.



Next step is probably a camera inspection.

I've taken chimneys apart by hand 1/2 way down the chimney and they were 25 years old. The chimneys without caps are the worst.
Now pointing the brick the right way would be grinding out the head and bed joints as deep as 2-3 times the width of the joint.

Example : 3/8 joint times 3 , you would grind 1 1/8 deep into the joint.

Now this applies to only mortar joints that are crumbling NOT delaminatining from the brick. That needs to be repaired differnty.
Smearing motar over the cracks in a mortar joint is no better then putting duct tape on it.
If you can get An engineer out to look at it thAt would be your best bet.
I have yet to find a chimney liner company that repairs a chimney the right way.

If you repair the chimney make sure you put a cap on and if you could put a " pan" on top of the wash of the chimney with a drip edge extending one inch around the pan you will be good for a long time.

j a_2

Oh well.I just don't agree. But that's just me
Never ever had a call back on a aluminum liner.... Have you and what was the issue? Airplanes skin are aluminum...










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Steamhead

Deterioration from sulfur deposits, on liners that were installed before we got involved.

j a_2

Steamhead, come on, your kidding, correct?

Steamhead

That's what the chimney guys told us. One particularly bad one looked like a Swiss cheese.............

Henry

While there are aluminium liners that are listed, they do tear and are easily affected by sulphur and anything corrosive such as brick motar. We have replaced a few. During our code meetings we have tossed the notion to ban aluminium liners. Unfortunatly we could not get a consensus.
Here are two examples of ventilation ducts being used.