Boiler still losing lots of water...not sure what to do next

a2shutt

Hi, I've posted before about my Burnham IN-7 losing water, and the responses were certainly a help. However, I'm still having trouble and really don't know where to check next. I'm honestly ready to hook the water feeder back up and just let it keep the boiler full until the thing rots out completely.

I've filled it up into the header and let it sit for 30 minutes or so. No water evident. The boiler room seems dry and not humid.

The wet return is newer and all exposed, no obvious leaks.

There is no significant vapor coming from the chimney, and the inside of the chimney is dry.

There are no steam leaks inside that I know of.

There are 7 apartments in the building, and i recently went through and serviced all the radiators. I re-packed almost all of the valve stems, tightened the unions, checked/replaced air vents, and checked pitch. There were some issues, but I fixed them and it seemed to solve the problem. I haven't noticed water loss for the last month or so, but with this recent cold snap here in Michigan it literally lost all of the water in 1-2 days.

I read recently on here that 1 pint of water makes a cubic yard of steam, or something like that. So it would seem that losing 10 gallons or so of water over 48 hours would make for some very obvious amounts of steam. Am I wrong?

Anyway, I have literally no idea what to do next. I'm not even joking about letting the water feeder keep it full until the boiler rots out. And I'm not sure I'll be sad to see it go.

Can anyone help? Thanks so much.

Fred

It would certainly be obvious somewhere if you are losing that much water. Does this boiler also supply Hot water to those apartments? Are there any hot water loops off of that boiler? Are you 100% sure that none of the radiators have a crack or leak that one of the tenants might be catching in a container (for whatever reason)? Are you sure that a steam riser in a wall isn't leaking and maybe steaming away? Do any of the walls seem damp? Are you 100% sure that someone isn't drawing water off of that boiler to get even with you for some reason? The water is clearly going somewhere and when you've checked all the logical places/possible causes, you have to start looking for other reasons.Look in the burner compartment and see if there are any signs of rust or steaming. If its not going out the chimney, (and you are sure it is not leaking elsewhere) is has to be going down (or something more bizzare is happening)
10 gallons in 48 hours is a little less than a quart per hour or a quart per heating cycle. I'm betting it's in a wall and evaporating. That volume does seem like a leak somewhere.

KC_Jones

Is it humid in the boiler room? I had a leak on mine that came out the front of the block condensed inside the insulation then the heat of the boiler evaporated it back into the air in my basement. Are the pipes insulated? In addition to the block leak I had a pipe leak under insulation that was acting the same way. The insulation got wet and the warmth of the pipes would evaporate it back into the air. It never dripped and I didn't discover it until I tore the old boiler out.

Dave0176

Just by chance are there any connections that are connected to a drain somewhere and a valve left open?? Just a thought, as 10 gallons of water leaking on a constant basis should show up somewhere.

wmtandson

interesting read

a2shutt

Dave0176 said:

Just by chance are there any connections that are connected to a drain somewhere and a valve left open?? Just a thought, as 10 gallons of water leaking on a constant basis should show up somewhere.

No, definitely not. All the valves are obvious and closed.

KC_Jones said:

Is it humid in the boiler room? I had a leak on mine that came out the front of the block condensed inside the insulation then the heat of the boiler evaporated it back into the air in my basement. Are the pipes insulated? In addition to the block leak I had a pipe leak under insulation that was acting the same way. The insulation got wet and the warmth of the pipes would evaporate it back into the air. It never dripped and I didn't discover it until I tore the old boiler out.

No, not humid at all. The pipes are mostly insulated-there are some elbows and other fittings that aren't but most of the rest is. I suppose there COULD be a leak somewhere where that is happening, but other leaks that I have found and fixed were very obvious...water dripping from the floor joists, soaked asbestos insulation falling, mold on the subfloor, etc. So I'd be surprised.

a2shutt

Fred said:

It would certainly be obvious somewhere if you are losing that much water. Does this boiler also supply Hot water to those apartments? Are there any hot water loops off of that boiler? Are you 100% sure that none of the radiators have a crack or leak that one of the tenants might be catching in a container (for whatever reason)? Are you sure that a steam riser in a wall isn't leaking and maybe steaming away? Do any of the walls seem damp? Are you 100% sure that someone isn't drawing water off of that boiler to get even with you for some reason? The water is clearly going somewhere and when you've checked all the logical places/possible causes, you have to start looking for other reasons.Look in the burner compartment and see if there are any signs of rust or steaming. If its not going out the chimney, (and you are sure it is not leaking elsewhere) is has to be going down (or something more bizzare is happening)
10 gallons in 48 hours is a little less than a quart per hour or a quart per heating cycle. I'm betting it's in a wall and evaporating. That volume does seem like a leak somewhere.

Yes, there is a hot water loop that feeds one apartment. I haven't checked that, but I assume that if it were leaking that much water it would be obvious. We aren't talking steam here, so any leaks would soak carpet and run into the basement.

No cracked radiators, or at least nothing obvious.

No one is pulling water off-that would be impossible in this setup.

I haven't noticed any damp walls. Wouldn't a leak in a wall make quite a mess? Falling plaster and all that. I haven't seen anything like that.

Oh, and i should mention that this boiler was installed in 2007.

Fred

a2shutt said:

Fred said:

It would certainly be obvious somewhere if you are losing that much water. Does this boiler also supply Hot water to those apartments? Are there any hot water loops off of that boiler? Are you 100% sure that none of the radiators have a crack or leak that one of the tenants might be catching in a container (for whatever reason)? Are you sure that a steam riser in a wall isn't leaking and maybe steaming away? Do any of the walls seem damp? Are you 100% sure that someone isn't drawing water off of that boiler to get even with you for some reason? The water is clearly going somewhere and when you've checked all the logical places/possible causes, you have to start looking for other reasons.Look in the burner compartment and see if there are any signs of rust or steaming. If its not going out the chimney, (and you are sure it is not leaking elsewhere) is has to be going down (or something more bizzare is happening)
10 gallons in 48 hours is a little less than a quart per hour or a quart per heating cycle. I'm betting it's in a wall and evaporating. That volume does seem like a leak somewhere.

Yes, there is a hot water loop that feeds one apartment. I haven't checked that, but I assume that if it were leaking that much water it would be obvious. We aren't talking steam here, so any leaks would soak carpet and run into the basement.

No cracked radiators, or at least nothing obvious.

No one is pulling water off-that would be impossible in this setup.

I haven't noticed any damp walls. Wouldn't a leak in a wall make quite a mess? Falling plaster and all that. I haven't seen anything like that.

Oh, and i should mention that this boiler was installed in 2007.

Check that loop and talk to the tenant. Sometimes people will just let things go and not say anything. They put a little container under the leak or a towel or anything that minimizes the issue and live with it.

As far as the walls are concerned you are thinking about that 10 gallon volume. You need to consider that it is less than a quart each cycle and if the leak is high up in the wall, it could very easily leak down the pipe and evaporate on that hot steam pipe. If it were on a run across a ceiling, you'd see a spot on the ceiling but maybe not on a verticle pipe and certianly not on a verticle pipe if its insulated or if the walls are insulated.
At this point it may make sense to buy (or rent) a moisture meter/sensor and follow the walls where there are steam risers. Sooner or later that much moisture will saturate insulation or whatever and become obvious but I know you don't want to have to deal with this issue indefinitely until it does.

a2shutt

Fred,

That makes sense. I'll do that and see what happens. Would a thermal camera do that for me? Thinking about renting one or maybe buying the Seek Thermal for iphone.

Fred

I would think a thermal camera would do it. Certainly should show a significant temp variance of a wet/damp area in contrast to the surrounding area. keep us posted on what you find.

JUGHNE

I service a 100 year old 1 pipe system; it always lost water; all the usual suspects were looked at; there was no insulation on the piping. As we installed insulation (sometimes with system running) almost every inch of piping was examined for leaks and none found. After insulation the operating pressure went up to 2 lbs from the normal 7-8 ozs. Then leaks appeared; a 2" union...1 1/4" plug in a cracked fitting (these were 12' above floor)......2 2" rad valve union nuts. At low pressure they would steam unnoticeably, I would have guessed that these "minor" leaks would never caused that much water loss at such low pressure. These were corrected along with adding a vaporstat control. Since then the water loss has gone down to a very acceptable amount.
As mentioned above a moisture probe might work to penetrate the insulation. We have a moisture tester (garden/plant center) for plants that has an 8" probe and is calibrated from 1-4 (dry to wet). It might tell you something. Also this might work inside a wall by drilling a small hole in wallboard . Maybe raising the pressure might reveal leaks. Just don't too high so as to wreck vents!!

a2shutt

JUGHNE said:

I service a 100 year old 1 pipe system; it always lost water; all the usual suspects were looked at; there was no insulation on the piping. As we installed insulation (sometimes with system running) almost every inch of piping was examined for leaks and none found. After insulation the operating pressure went up to 2 lbs from the normal 7-8 ozs. Then leaks appeared; a 2" union...1 1/4" plug in a cracked fitting (these were 12' above floor)......2 2" rad valve union nuts. At low pressure they would steam unnoticeably, I would have guessed that these "minor" leaks would never caused that much water loss at such low pressure. These were corrected along with adding a vaporstat control. Since then the water loss has gone down to a very acceptable amount.
As mentioned above a moisture probe might work to penetrate the insulation. We have a moisture tester (garden/plant center) for plants that has an 8" probe and is calibrated from 1-4 (dry to wet). It might tell you something. Also this might work inside a wall by drilling a small hole in wallboard . Maybe raising the pressure might reveal leaks. Just don't too high so as to wreck vents!!

Hmmm very interesting. I was actually running at around 2 lbs until recently, which I thought might be part of the issue. I'm quite a bit lower than that now. It seems crazy that small leaks like that could empty a boiler in a day or two, though.

JUGHNE

As I look back at records of filling this averaged about .3 to .5 gal per day at the worst and maybe less than .1 per day at best. However this system has setback most of the time. Needs heat for only 1 hour on 5 different days a week. So if fired time wise as yours is the loss would be a lot more from the "small" leaks I had. Also with the boiler buddy tank this holds 90 gallons of water so the ratio of raw water to existing boiler water was low.

ChrisJ

I found my bathroom radiator had a small leak where the valve connects to it a few months ago. If I was lucky enough to be in there early in the morning when it was quiet in the house and the heat just came on it would sizzle a little with a droplet of water on top of the connection. After that, it would be hot enough to evaporate any water.

It actually took several times until I realized what was going on because it's right by the tub so I thought maybe it got wet from the shower.

I've found it quite hard to find steam leaks or leaks on the boiler because it all runs hot enough to evaporate the water.

a2shutt

Unfortunately, my chances of finding small leaks like that are slim to none because this is a rental property. So I'm not regularly spending time by any of the radiators, nor am I able to access them whenever I want. If it comes down to that, I'll probably end up just letting the water feeder refill it and deal with the boiler when the time comes. Not sure what else I could do.

Thanks for the input, I appreciate it.

ChrisJ

a2shutt said:

Unfortunately, my chances of finding small leaks like that are slim to none because this is a rental property. So I'm not regularly spending time by any of the radiators, nor am I able to access them whenever I want. If it comes down to that, I'll probably end up just letting the water feeder refill it and deal with the boiler when the time comes. Not sure what else I could do.

Thanks for the input, I appreciate it.

Yeah, it's hard.
The only idea I can come up with as a homeowner that has never worked on anything other than my own stuff and maybe some close friends is a pressure test in the summer. Pull all vents and plug the holes and then fill the boiler and system with air to around 10 PSI. Then go around with a bottle of soap water and a stethoscope and try to find leaks.

Sounds crazy but I bet it could work and 10 PSI would be far easier to find than 1.

a2shutt

Yeah that would work unless the issue was behind insulation or in a wall or something. I think I'm going to order the thermal camera and see if that does it. You can pick up the Seek Thermal ones for mighty cheap...

Fred

a2shutt said:

Unfortunately, my chances of finding small leaks like that are slim to none because this is a rental property. So I'm not regularly spending time by any of the radiators, nor am I able to access them whenever I want. If it comes down to that, I'll probably end up just letting the water feeder refill it and deal with the boiler when the time comes. Not sure what else I could do.

Thanks for the input, I appreciate it.

The issue with this approach is, when the boiler finally rots out, you will likely still have a leak somewhere other than at the boiler so you start the cycle over again with the new boiler. Do use the thermal camera and see what you get.