Help diagnosing hydro air problems....

berriesandnuts · May 2014

I'm just a homeowner that's been reading the NY Times. So I may sound smarter than I am. But I'll try to describe my problem. Please excuse the long post.

Home is about 11 years old colonial. Typical batt insulation. Was originally appx. 2300sq.

An air handler in the basement, another in the attic.

Magic Aire 60DUXB33HW

Burnham PV84W oil boiler.

Have always had a problem with heating & cooling the 2nd floor.

The pipes are 3/4 from the basement to the attic (appx. 50ft) to the air handler.

The pipes are always hot all the way to the attic air handler, but go cool once the air handler starts up. And I get only lukewarm air.

There is antifreeze in the system.

I've recently had one of those energy surveys done, explained my situation, and got the results and suggestions from them. I'm confused by their suggestions.

While I had been waiting for my appointment, I had done a heat loss as best I could from "build it solar.com". It came out to appx. 82,000 btu (I don't know how to account for DHW).

Oh, I forgot to mention about 7 years ago, an addition was built onto the garage for my father-in-law which bought the total sq. feet to about 3100. At that time, they added another air handler (I'm thinking now it wasn't necessary?)

Anyway, the suggestions were that the attic air handler is a 3-ton unit and the 3/4 pipes cannot supply the needed 60,000 btu it needs? So therefore, put in 1inch pipes and replace boiler.

I'm confused as to what my next step should be. I'll try to post pictures.

*****Edit **

I've added a pic.

Snowmelt · May 2014

Pump

What size pump do you, you might also want to set your pump in primery secoundary.

The reason I say this is because I see a lot of hydro air where the pump is to small cuasing the gpm through the coil to low and the hot coil in the air handler drops it heat to quick.

CMadatMe · May 2014

The Anwser

To your question is in a heat loss and this. A btu is a btu. I can still get 60,000 btu/hr thru 3/4" pipe..

http://www.valtec.ca/_PDF/FichesTechniques/DUW-DUX.pdf

icesailor · May 2014

Pipes:

That might work if you can pump 360 gallons of water through a 3/4" pipe in an hour. Depends on the head pressure though.

Put another way, nothing is impossible. Its just that some things are harder then others.

berriesandnuts · May 2014

pump and piping

The pump says "Grundfos". It looks like it has 3 speeds and is set to 3.

I don't yet know enough to say it is primary/secondary. I think it is based off of sketches that I've seen online.

The downstairs zone cranks out heat no problem. Even on cold days when the thermostat kicks on in the afternoon, it only takes about 15-20 minutes to come up to 68 from 55.

CMadatMe · May 2014

Not Sure If You Are Replying

To my post Ice but last I checked

60,000/ (500 x 4) = 30 Degree Delta-T. I'd also make sure my aquastat was on the return, not on the supply and my fan speed was low. All is mute anyway without a proper heat loss..Pressure drop across the a/h is prob minimal 5' maybe..

If its just a straight shot from the boiler room to the attice best bet is to just run some 1" HePex and be done with it.

berriesandnuts · May 2014

heat loss...

The numbers I came up with for a heat loss were about 28,000 for the 2nd floor.

But with the online program that I used, I don't see where to account for the indirect tank (which I'm not sure, but I think either is 60 or 80 gallon).

And I'll double check the model number of the air handler in the attic, and I'm not sure I'm understanding that spec sheet you linked to (didn't know what PD was, or EAT), but it seems to indicate that the air handler needs anywhere from 3 to 5.5 GPM?

Is there a way for me to know what GPM is going through that coil in the attic?

Also, is there a way to check for leaks in ducts and such?

I've also been having to get the system purged sometimes twice a year and that's also getting to be very expensive.

I've been reading up on how to do it myself going forward. I'm gonna wait till it's a bit warmer outside and I have time to fix any mistakes.

CMadatMe · May 2014

You Don't

Account for the indirect in a heat loss. It has nothing to do with the heating system, though there should be a priority zone control used so when it calls the heating zones shut down, tank gets satisfied with all the boilers muscle quickly and the heating zones are activated again.

If that A/H is only doing the 2nd floor then the pipe size to it is fine.

Yeah there is..Figure out pump head, and then look at the pumps curve.

icesailor · May 2014

Flow:

60,000 BTU's is a lot of water to pump through a 3/4" copper tube.

Then I always ask, (because it is on a top floor) what is the system pressure? Raise it up to 25# and see if it starts to work. It sounds like there is air in the AH coil. Either one or the other should work. Unless there's a piping problem, they BOTH should work. I'll bet that the system is set to 12# and is running at less than that. If the system pressure isn't high enough, all the circulator pumps in the wholesaler's warehouse won't make the water go around.

berriesandnuts · May 2014

aquastat?

Chris, I had to look up what delta-t meant. But anyway, I know of an aquasat on the indirect tank. Are you speaking of a different one?

The pipe run goes up the wall past the living room, 2nd floor bedroom, attic.

Are you suggesting to remove that current piping, and replace?

Not that I know a lot of what I'm talking about here, but at least I'd like to be able to sort of know what's going on and point the guys in the right direction (unlike in the past).

CMadatMe · May 2014

I'm Not Suggesting Anything

Not on the job..

MikeL_2 · May 2014

pumping away

Attic mounted ahu's can present a wide assortment of issues, and I'm not sure why some continue to install ahu's in attics where they are always out of sight, and often out of mind. I always thought it would be better to have a nine, or ten foot ceiling height in a homes second floor, and install the ahu in a closet. This would keep the unit in the conditioned space, and supply & return trunks could be boxed - in as they traverse the ceiling near the center of the space..........

Anti freeze must be used in the connected piping of attic mounted ahu's, and it should be checked annually for concentration and ph; it also has a different surface tension than water, and will seek an escape where water won't. Anti freeze also has different flow characteristics and heat transfer properties than water.

I would confirm that the boilers operating pressure is set high enough to allow the fluid to reach the attic ahu, make sure the antifreeze / water mix is the correct concentration, and, most importantly, take advantage of a circulators optimum performance by connecting it to pump away from the point of no pressure change.......

berriesandnuts · May 2014

pump...

I looked up the pump. It's a UPS15. I looked up the specs. It seems like for the approximately 50 feet of pipe for that upstairs zone, the pump should be ok for delivering the GPM to the air-handler.

Well actually, if I'm supposed to account for ALL the piping, it's about 180 feet total one way for all the piping. Would that then be about 360 feet that I'd have to account for in figuring out the head I'm assuming.

It still seems that that pump should work. Is it looking then like somethings wrong with either the piping? Or air in the coil or both?

I believe the guage on the boiler reads close to 20#.

**** Also, *****

Any idea why the plumbing-heating guys that did the energy survey suggested that the current boiler would NOT be able to supply the 60,000 BTU for the air handler plus everything else? That would suggest I need a bigger boiler? Or bigger pipes?

Are they coming up with a different heat loss than I am? The specs I looked up for the current boiler seems like it's more than enough. It give 2 sets of numbers, both of which are more than the heat loss I came up with.

berriesandnuts · May 2014

pump away...

Yes! Last year (around Sept) I had a guy come to purge. He moved the pump from the where it was (on the return) to what I now understand to be on the supply side.

The heat was slightly better when the cold hit. It still took like an hour to reach 68. I also mentioned to him I sometimes hear "rattling" from the circulator.

But yes, there is antifreeze in the system. I assume since it gets a "purging" every year, the ph is ok?

I think within the last 3 years, I've paid enough to have had the air handler swapped out by now (I've seen them online for like $600).

About the pressure, I will check on it. But as I understand it, I should not be introducing more water into the system? How would I alter the pressure if that's the case?

Zman · May 2014

Flow.

You almost surely have a flow issue. The question is why?

Verify the system pressure. The boiler gauge could be wrong you can put another gauge on the drain to check. How high above the boiler is the handler?

Verify that you are not air locked. Listen to the pipes, is there a bleed valve or air eliminator in the attic.

Is the circ a ups15-58?15/60? 15-42?

How much piping is there between the circulator and the air handler? Approx footage and number of turns in supply and return.

A picture of the boiler piping would help.

With everything piped and sized correctly, you should be able to get 4 to 5 gpm and heat the room.

berriesandnuts · May 2014

flow...

Ooops. Didn't have my glasses and I was using a mirror. I mis-read the circulator. It says Grundfos 26-99F.

The boiler needle sits between 20-25 it looks like. I'll have to buy a gauge to check I guess.

The handler is about 20 feet above boiler. There is a couple of bicycle type valves in the air handler attached to the coil. A technician put a "canister" type of bleeder on one of the pipes (return I think) a couple years ago. It was replaced beginning of winter.

There is about 45 feet of piping I estimate between boiler and air handler one way. So about 90 feet. Maybe about 3 90 degree turns before it reaches the basement..

I added a couple pics to my original post.

CMadatMe · May 2014

You Have Plenty of Pump

Probably too much pump. That's why I asked and you still haven't answered. What is the supply water temp leaving the zone and what is the return water temp coming back.

Zman · May 2014

Pump

Ya a 26-99 will get it done. It should be moving about 6 gpm.

I think it is either airlocked of mispiped. Sometimes someone "knuckleheads" the boler piping and the water mostly runs around in circles.

A picture would sure help.

Carl

CMadatMe · May 2014

Its Funny How

the internet is so vast but yet such a small place. The OP has a contractor, one of the best around in his market. Think I'll leave this one alone, we all have better things to do with our time.

berriesandnuts · May 2014

water temp

The temp on the boiler gauge says 190. I don't know how to determine the return water temp.

berriesandnuts · May 2014

pics

I thought I added a couple of pics. Perhaps they are not showing up. I will try to post a link instead to online pics.

berriesandnuts · May 2014

re: contractor..

I apologize for wasting anyone's time. A couple years ago after these ongoing issues I contacted someone from this forum's list of contractors. He came, got paid, and then it's hard to get a hold of him. So I stuck it out until this spring. Before that, I had called another place in a nearby town from me, they sent a tech. That one said he purged some air and put on the attic bleeder.

Before that, a different guy came the year before (middle of winter) said "frozen pipes", and left.

The most recent people came as result from the NY free energy audit I applied for.

Snowmelt · May 2014

What you have to do

You have to put that zone and that zone only. Feel the pipe going to the air handler, at the air handler, after the air handler.

There is a flow issue where I said at the beginning of the post. There are so many things that it can be. Try swapping that pump with another pump. Try clearing the line out. Do something different, possible air in the line.

Maybe the air handler fan is going to quick.

So many silly possibilities.

Where are you from, can you call a pro heating guy to come & look at it.

Weezbo · May 2014

i like to have my boiler at the supply and return .

either a system bypass right there or a three way valve.

then i know what is what by looking at temp gauges in front of the equipment or remote station header that i am looking at and working on.

is there some particular reason folks do not like a few dollars worth of parts and pieces to help diagnose whats happening at the equipment ?

Weezbo.

Snowmelt · May 2014

Just loo looked

At pictures you needed to put it on its own zone on its own add an air seperator. Get rid of the glycol. That's what I would do if I was at the job, also make that 1 inch pipe.

Zman · May 2014

Hmm...

I still think verifying the air pressure and checking that the air vent in the attic is working should be next. How many vertical feet is the handler above the boiler?

I think completely isolating the other zones (close the valves) and trying just the one is a good plan.

Pull the head off the zone valve and be sure it is opening completely.

Check the amp draw on the circ and inspect the impeller.

Take apart the water side of the zone valve.

Inspect the piping especially inside the air handler for a partially closed valve.

The series of 90s on the intake side of the circ are not helping matters.

Punt...

berriesandnuts · May 2014

During winter..

I can tell you that during the winter I've gone in the attic (under recommendations to bleed air from the bicycle looking valve in the air handler) and the pipe leading to the air handler is hot, but the pipe coming out was cool to the touch whenever the fan starts.

I am in Orange County NY. I did call someone at the beginning of the fall. $1100 later, winter, and back to lukewarm air.

To be fair, he did service the boiler and put in new antifreeze and move the circulator.

He mentioned that if something ever goes wrong with the tank or boiler, it will cost extra because of all the piping in the way.

That is a bit concerning since now I see on the internet quite a bit of mention about this Burnham series boiler having leaking problems.

berriesandnuts · May 2014

air handler is

Air handler in attic is only about 20 or so feet vertically from the boiler in the basement I think. Although it is about 12 feet in from the corner wall in the attic.

But from what I'm reading here, it seems there is something wrong with the flow through the coil.

I went to take another look at the inside but I don't really see anything unusual. Plus it's warm in the attic now.

But I did jump in surprise when I leaned against the pipes (nearly stepped into the insulation). They were both hot. Shouldn't they be cold? I have all the thermostats off right now (except the indirect tank I guess).

berriesandnuts · May 2014

I've been thinking..

The Plumbing & Heating place that did the energy survey quoted about $1300 to diagnose the system. But I'm coming up on the time to pay for servicing the 3 ac units. At some point, I'd like to get the boiler piping re-arranged for easier service.

I'm thinking that what would it cost to just swap out that attic air unit? Wouldn't that kill 2 birds with one stone?

Like maybe forgo servicing the 3 units. Swap out the attic unit thereby fully purging and checking the circulator at the same time? I mean, can it be more that the $1300?

I'm still recovering from the $1100 in the winter. I don't want to waste more money. I'm saving up for other stuff.

clammy · May 2014

attic hydro air

Just looked at your post ,aside from boiler /piping issues maybe you should take a look at the duct insulation and the values of the flex and duct wrap .also does your attic have gable /soffit vents and a attic relief fan .I guess each air handler and its coil is working off a zone valve of some type or do you have a seperate pump for each heating zone.Usually on any attic duct jobs i use a mimiun of r 8 duct wrap and flex .I also like to install a aquastat on the return pipe to engage the fan also as others have stated low speed on the fan i also like to put a freeze stat on any hot water coil that is in a attic and usually a flow check on each zones supplies if using zone valves on the return piping usually stops thermal migration issue which is very common in just about every hydro air system i ever looked at but that whats keep hydro air affordable on the install and usually a pia for the home owner .Whatsup with that uninsulated supply pleum maybe your cooling and heating issues is due to poor duct installation and lower r valve insulation also as a side note externally wrapped ducts should never have the wrapped pulled tight and snug if it is you are not getting themanafactures rated r valve ,bubble wrap does not work and internally lined duct work as one of my old bosses used to say you put that junk in people homes you dis like.Lined duct work does not work well in attics it s r valve is crap and it collects alot of duct and debrie .Has any one ever cleaned or chked your indoor a/c and heating coil could be packed with debrie .Just a couple of suggestion i m not a huge fan of hydro air or air dampered zoned systems maybe because i always see issue and profermace issues .peace and good luck clammy

Snowmelt · May 2014

Getting flustered

What part did u not understand.

Put that air handler on heat and see what the pipes are doing.

That's the only way you will see what's going on.

Maybe that zone is messed up.

What is going on with the indirect water heater. Is it on, is it off? We need more of a clue.

You may want to invest in a taco zone control board for all them zones you have.

That way you have specific information on what to give us.

But once again I ask you to feel the copper pipe when you have that zone on !

berriesandnuts · May 2014

What's happening is..

Snowmelt,

Here is what seems to be happening.

With none of the thermostats in the house on, the boiler kicks on periodically (I presume because the indirect tank thermostat is triggering).

With none of the thermostats on, all the other pipes are cool "EXCEPT" the 2nd floor zone (both pipes are hot).

When I turn on the heat for the 2nd floor, the boiler fires, the air handler kicks on a minute or so later. Then, the return pipe for that 2nd floor goes cool. I've gone in the attic during the winter and that return pipe will be cool coming out of the air handler.

At this point, the air blowing in the 2nd floor is pretty much room temperature air. It seems to just be recirculating the warm air coming from the first floor zone.

Right now though, the return pipe is "warmish" but it is also already 75 in the house and the attic is quite warm.

Tim Potter · May 2014

air handler

1) why is there a washing machine hose between valve 1 & valve 3 ?

2) looks like there is a air bleed in the attic, you can just see it in the middle picture. IF ITS WORKING, it would be easy to bleed out any air in the system IF there is enough pressure in the system. see icesailers post on pressure. verify pressure with an adaptor on 1 of the bleed valves.

Here is an example of a 60 psi gauge:

http://www.supplyhouse.com/Ashcroft-25W1005H02L-0-60-2-5-1005-Steel-Pressure-Gauge-with-PowerFlex-Movement

that you could install the 60 psi gauge on this adaptor (200 psi is way out of range for a boiler)

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Rain-Bird-3-in-P2A-Water-Pressure-Gauge-P2A/100575619

3) the 28000 btu load seems more realistic than the 60000 number, & its a lot easier to get 28k through the 3/4 pipe.

Snowmelt · May 2014

Here is

What I want you to do.

I lose your thought process when you say the 2nd floor and when you say it think the domestic is calling.

Also I know it's warm / hot in attic but the copper tubing will be hot hot to the touch on the supply piping when calling for heat in that zone. The blower moter in the air handler will blow & pick up the heat off the coil making your duct warm.

When you turn on the secound floor heat is that the coil in the air handler, something telling me that it's not, your saying the return is cool, is there any other pipe that's warm?

Or

If the supply water going into the air handler is hot, what ever temperature you have it going Into the air handler and it's comming out the air handler way to cool. ( it should be only 20 degree difference) then the fan is staying in air-conditioning mode and not in heating, you may have yo slow down the fan speed or the wire something different a/c and heat have 2 different speeds.

You can do that at any temp inside the home. when doing this I would take a wire out of the indirect water heater so that doesn't click on. So you have no distractions, what in want to do us isolate the zone and run that zone only.

It's find for the air handler to have a delay when turning the zone on, it may just want to make sure the coil is hot before it kicks on so it blows only warm air.

Ultimitly I want you to tell us with only the air handler on the supply water is x temp right at the unit, and the return water is x temp.

Also let's make sure water isn't going anywhere else.

Snowmelt · May 2014

Also

Where are you hose bib with shut off on supply , they should be on return .

I will also suggest you buy a taco zone control board 4 zones. That will eliminate a lot of your guessing of I think the indirect water heater is on. It will tell you what t stat is calling and what zone valve is opening, it's a must for me. When I go in a project like this, it tells me exactly what's on and what's off.

Tim Potter · May 2014

piping issues ?

From Snowmelts reply:

"Where are you hose bib with shut off on supply , they should be on return"

any possibility that the guy who re-plumbed the boiler piping is using the old returns as the new supply?

That would explain why its so hard to purge that zone

Snowmelt · May 2014

Hi Tim

I just blew the pic so I can see it. More clearly, it just doesn't look right. Also what about putting the zone board on there, I would deftly want to see what's operating at what time.

berriesandnuts · May 2014

Pressure gauge...

Tim,

re: question 1) about the hose...

I don't know. The last tech that came left it there.

re: 2) air bleeder

Yes, that air bleeder was replaced about 6 months ago (was leaking I think).

When I get a chance, I will buy one of those pressure gauges you linked to.

Question... When I measure pressure, should everything be off (meaning boiler cold)?

berriesandnuts · May 2014

some clarification....

Snowmelt,

What I did was to turn up the thermostat on the 2nd floor.

Then climb up into the attic where the air handler is.

That's where I touch the pipes. There are only two. The one going in is hot. Hot enough that I can't keep my hand on it more than a couple seconds.

But after the air handler starts blowing, the other is "much" cooler. Like barely warm to the touch.

I will see about turning off the indirect tank though.

Oh, also, after I turn up the thermostat, I run to the basement and can see that the lever on that upstairs zone is open. When I turn the thermostat off, it goes to the left.

BUT, I've been leaving the thermostats (1st & 2nd & room addition) off lately. When I come home, I've gone into the basement, and the 2nd floor pipes (supply & return) are sometimes both hot.

About the taco zone board.....

Yes, I think I would like to get one. Actually, I've been saving up to put more insulation in the attic and to also get either a wood or coal boiler so I can be weened off of the oil, but keep the the oil boiler as a backup. But the twice a year "purgings" have been setting me back. And as I understand the general advice on the forum, it is best to fix the current problems first before I do anything?

RobG · May 2014

Pipe size

What size pipe is coming out of the boiler and and into the manifold? How many BTU's are the air handlers? Any given pipe can only convey a given amount of BTU's. I take it from the mess of wiring that you do not have domestic water priority.

clammy · May 2014

thermal migration

Itseems to me you have thermal migration from your indirect to your 2nd floor attic heating coil.You can have thermal migration in a single pipe .When all zones thermostat are off and your boiler piping is cool do you find that the heating circuit piping from the indirect is hot and that one or both of the pipes going to the attic is hot if so you have thermal migration .The reason your boiler comes on and off is that your losing your domestic side temp to thermal siphoning through migration .Install a check valve on both the indirect and the second floor coil .On hydro air in attics you need flow chk other wise when the a/c running it drops the coil temp and increases the thermal migration espically after looking at your heating coils location on the supply .I personally pipe indirects i install using internal check valve pumps on the supply with a standard flow check valve on the return it nips domestic thermal migration to the heating side down to nil also wire it as priority.I think you may need to find yourself more knoweledgable heating contractor .peace and good luck clammy

Help diagnosing hydro air problems....

Comments

Categories