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Can not purge air from 2nd floor.

Cbarry
Cbarry Member Posts: 13
Hello,

I am having a problem with purging air from my Weill McClain Gold boiler.

When the heat turns on my 2nd floor, I hear water running through the baseboard. When it shuts off, there is a loud clank for about two seconds. (The clank is always in a different room)

I attempted to purge the air from the 2nd floor zone (pic # 2), but after 45 minutes, there is still air in the bucket. I have tried this on three occasions. I should also note, there is no noise on the first floor or in the basement.

I figured I am doing it wrong. I tried doing it exactly how my heat service rep showed me.

1. I shut the boiler off. (some people suggest to leave the boiler on, I tried that once but stopped after five minutes was unsure if I was doing it correctly and didn't want to screw up the boiler)
2. I shut the water valve off (valve marked with red box in 1st pic)
3. I then move the lever on the zone valve, hooking it to the right.
4. I open the spigot with a hose in a bucket.

Now one reason why I thought I may be doing this wrong is that the pressure goes to zero when I open the spigot, so I manually increase the pressure. In the beginning there was a ton of air, after awhile it was just a steady stream of small bubbles.


My question is, am I doing this properly? I wondered if maybe I was turning the wrong water off?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Comments

  • bmwpowere36m3
    bmwpowere36m3 Member Posts: 512
    Are you engaging the fast fill on the pressure valve (make up water). Sometimes, it helps to use full city pressure when purging. I don't see any air elimination device on the boiler piping.

    The noise could also be pipe expansion...
  • Cbarry
    Cbarry Member Posts: 13
    I have well water. Don't know if that makes a difference. I am lifting up the nozzle on the pressure valve to gain pressure. Here's the picture of the pressure switch I was lifting.
    And another of the boiler.
  • bmwpowere36m3
    bmwpowere36m3 Member Posts: 512
    Yes that's the right one... that should give you full pressure, in your case whatever the pressure switch is set at on the well tank (30-40 psi).
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    First of all, that cast iron Watts S1156F is shot and probably isn't holding correct water pressure in the system. I don't even know if you can buy cast iron valves anymore. Only brass ones. My suspicions are that some boilers didn't fill, burned up, and the lack of filling was blamed. An insurance liability issue.

    Where (what State) is this boiler installed?

    If you keep futzing with the bypass lever, that valve will stop shutting off and overfill the system.

    Be sure that you have at least 20# of pressure on the boiler gauge before you try to vent the second floor. Often, just raising the pressure and maintaining it high enough will purge it. Whenever you hear the sound of water running through second floor pipes, it is usually because there isn't enough pressure in the system. And because the top floor radiation can be pulled into a vacuum, the water might be boiling on the top floor inside the pipes.

    You CAN NOT purge without adequate pressure. No matter how long you try.

    Replace the valve with a brass one and use a brass nipple from the brass valve to the black tee. Wise installers install a 1/2" IPS ball valve with brass tees between the outlet of the valve and that black tee. So if you need to service the valve (like you are about to do), you don't have to drain the system.

    If you are in Massachusetts, you need a backflow device installed before the S1156F.
    sludge
  • Patchogue Phil_2
    Patchogue Phil_2 Member Posts: 304
    You might not be getting enough volume of water to flow with enough pressure to force the air trapped way up high in the pipes, to come back down to that spigot. Are there any air bleeders up higher near the highest baseboard heating elements?
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    edited February 2015
    This is what Cast Iron Watts S1156F feeders look like on well water. They become so obstructed that they won't flow fast enough because the screen plugs up, And the other valve is a brass 9D backflow connected to a cast iron valve.

    Not a wise practice.


  • Cbarry
    Cbarry Member Posts: 13
    I'm in NY. The boiler is only 3 years old. I guess the plumber who installed it didn't change the cast iron valve.

    The pressure reads at 30 psi when the boiler is on. When I opened the spigot, the pressure goes down to zero.

    I guess I'm calling someone to come out. Thanks
  • bmwpowere36m3
    bmwpowere36m3 Member Posts: 512
    The pressure drop on the gauge is normal when you open the spigot. With a cold boiler/water it should be closer to 12-15 psi... unless you building is more than two stories. However those boiler temp/psi gauges are nortoriously inaccurate.

    However I do agree with ice sailor.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    edited February 2015
    Cbarry said:

    I'm in NY. The boiler is only 3 years old. I guess the plumber who installed it didn't change the cast iron valve.

    The pressure reads at 30 psi when the boiler is on. When I opened the spigot, the pressure goes down to zero.

    I guess I'm calling someone to come out. Thanks

    If that is the case, the exrol/bladder tank has failed and needs to be replaced. There is no room for expansion in the system. Some of us always replace the fill valve and the Temp/pressure relief valve when changing an expansion tank. Especially if the auto fill valve has been misbehaving.

  • Shane_2
    Shane_2 Member Posts: 191
    sludge said:

    Use your hot water tank to pressurize the boiler

    DO NOT DO THIS!!

    Get a new pressure reducing valve (fill valve) and a new backflow preventer. Personally, I prefer the B&G FB-38 fill valve, and the watts 9D backflow preventer. And as Icesailor said: you probably need an expansion tank as well.
  • bmwpowere36m3
    bmwpowere36m3 Member Posts: 512
    icesailor said:

    Cbarry said:

    I'm in NY. The boiler is only 3 years old. I guess the plumber who installed it didn't change the cast iron valve.

    The pressure reads at 30 psi when the boiler is on. When I opened the spigot, the pressure goes down to zero.

    I guess I'm calling someone to come out. Thanks

    If that is the case, the exrol/bladder tank has failed and needs to be replaced. There is no room for expansion in the system. Some of us always replace the fill valve and the Temp/pressure relief valve when changing an expansion tank. Especially if the auto fill valve has been misbehaving.

    That's definitely a possibility, but without knowing the cold fill pressure (water) and expansion tank pressure…. it's a bit of a guess. For all we know, the gauge is no good.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    He mentioned that when he opened the drain, the pressure on the gauge went to zero. When he operated the bypass lever on the fill valve, the pressure immediately went to 30# and the relief valve dripped. That usually means the Extrol Bladder has been compromised. If the gauge doesn't register zero when there is no pressure, replace it.

    If it is a requirement that there be a backflow device on the boiler (like in Massachusetts, there are combi units like a Watts 9-11. Califfi makes one too. B&G's may be OK. The ones I dealt with were slow on the bypass pressure and volume and sucked for purging. I had to get out the bypass hose. That's another topic.
  • Cbarry
    Cbarry Member Posts: 13
    Ice sailor, when I opened the spigot the pressure dropped to zero. I then lifted the pressure valve until it went to 30. The valve never dripped. Don't know if that made a difference.

    And thank you for the advice.
  • bmwpowere36m3
    bmwpowere36m3 Member Posts: 512
    edited February 2015
    It read 30 psi with the spigot open? With the system closed and fill valve open (not touching the fast fill lever), you should see 12-15 psi on a cold system. When the system heats up, it should only read a few degrees higher than fill. If it reads a lot more, then the expansion tank might be damaged/water logged, not pressurized correctly and/or too small.
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,691
    Has the system ever been meddled with, I mean ever??? I learned a very hard lesson maybe 20 years ago. You can't bleed off a rad or BB if someone created a short cut in the system. Been there done that!
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    gary@wilsonph.com
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    edited February 2015
    Just how do you do that without the relief valve blowing if the heat is running? If the street pressure is 50 to 60# and the maximum blow off pressure is 30#?

    As it is now, if the Extrol tank as failed, the fill valve is maintaining not enough. The air in the system is providing the air cushion. In a sense, you'd be better off not purging the system until it is fixed with a new Extrol. The Extrol tank is gray. So it is after the blue ones. Less than 15 years old. It might hold air is properly charged. At least until the fill valve is replaced.
  • nevele
    nevele Member Posts: 30
    I could be wrong but if you are closing the ball valve and then forcing the motorized valve open and then start purging through the boiler drain valve on that zone then the water could be coming from the other zones. You should shut the pump off,make sure the zone is not calling for heat so that the motorized valve is closed ,use the lever on the water feed valve to keep the pressure up over 20 all the time and then bleed water from the drain making sure to keep the pressure up . Anytime the pressure goes to zero you have to start from scratch. If you open the drain and the pressure drops suddenly to zero then your expansion tank is waterlogged and has to be replaced.
    What you will be doing is forcing water and air from the boiler through the supply piping around the zone and out the boiler drain. If the motorized valve is open it wont work.
    GW
  • wogpa67
    wogpa67 Member Posts: 238


    I should know better and stay away from these blogs.

    Theres NOTHING wrong, with using a hot water heater to pressurize a boiler system, until you get a new feed water valve.

    There's no such thing as a hot water heater!


  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    You're going to have to do some seriously difficult linguistics to explain that one.

    What are you going to call a tank, filled with water with a method of heating the water inside and stores it for later use?
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,691
    I always dig the person who gets their bee in a bonnet when the phrase Hot Water Heater is used. Jus Let It Go! It's ok!
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    gary@wilsonph.com
  • Cbarry
    Cbarry Member Posts: 13
    My head is spinning, ball valve, boiler drain valve, motorized valve. I have no idea which one is which.

    I was hoping I was doing something wrong like closing the wrong water valve.

    The heat works, I'll deal with the rattling and then pay someone to fix it.

    Anyway, thanks for the help.
  • Cbarry
    Cbarry Member Posts: 13
    And GW, I think that may be it. The clown contractor who installed it three years ago said he had issues getting the air out when he installed it. I'm sure he did something wrong, he did everything else wrong that he touched.
  • wogpa67
    wogpa67 Member Posts: 238
    My Bee is not in a bonnet.
    The Boxes say Water heater on them.
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,691
    Well an old timer I worked with in 1984 called
    flux "Nokorode", but I didnt care..... just let it go!

    I kinda miss that old dude.
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    gary@wilsonph.com
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,691
    Cbarry, I've purged heat loops many times. If you're dropping to 0 there is something very strange with your system or feeder.

    I'd tie onto the water heater to gain access to full water pressure, keeping am eye on the pressure Guage as you're doing the purge. Don't get to 30 psi or you may blow off the relief valve.

    If you have funky piping you will struggle

    Gary
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    gary@wilsonph.com
  • nevele
    nevele Member Posts: 30
    Sorry the motorized valve is the zone valve .When you hook it to the right your locking it in the open position . It should be closed so the water will force around the loop. The ball valve is the red valve in the box although on second thought you don't have to touch it. Just leave it open. The boiler drain is the spigot. If you keep the pressure up and open the spigot with the zone valve closed it should eliminate the air from the zone.
    Cbarry
  • GW
    GW Member Posts: 4,691
    Ahh just saw your pics, where are you purging from?
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    gary@wilsonph.com
  • Cbarry
    Cbarry Member Posts: 13
    Nevele, I was hooking the zone valve to the open position. That's what the guy did on YouTube = )
  • Cbarry
    Cbarry Member Posts: 13
    Also something to add. The pressure went to zero if I opened the spigot all the way. If I opened it slightly it stayed around 10-15
  • Cbarry
    Cbarry Member Posts: 13
    I will try that tomorrow morning
  • Cbarry
    Cbarry Member Posts: 13
    Gw I opened the ball valve (thanks Nevele) and then I was hooking the zone valve on the first box on the left of the picture. Then I opened the spigot. If I opened it slightly there was around 10 psi pressure. If I opened it a the way it dropped to 0. I was then using the lever on pic 3 to keep the pressure at 30. After 45 mins. Air was still blowing

    Hope that answers the question.

    I figured I was doing something wrong and Nevele suggested not to open the zone valve and do not stop the water valve or ball valve.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    What you saw someone do on You Tube doesn't apply to you and your system.

    Whatever he did, it is wrong for you. Your purging is set of backwards from the norm. Yours purges from the return of the boiler and the hose goes on the boiler drains above the zone valves. The cone valves stay closed. The red handled ball valve must be closed. When you open the zone valve and leave the red handled ball valve open above the boiler supply, you will only purge water from the boiler. If you fix the problems and purge properly, your system will work.
    Cbarry
  • Cbarry
    Cbarry Member Posts: 13
    When I mentioned YouTube, I mentioned it to show that I'm a buffoon. I did start the thread saying I knew I was doing something wrong.
  • Cbarry
    Cbarry Member Posts: 13
    So icesailor

    I close the ball valve and open the spigot. That's it?
  • nevele
    nevele Member Posts: 30
    The most important thing is to keep the zone valve closed while your draining from the spigot whether the ball valve is open or not. Also to keep the pressure up the way you were .
    Cbarry
  • bmwpowere36m3
    bmwpowere36m3 Member Posts: 512
    You can't simply close the red ball valve, because water can be coming from either loop when purging if the zone valves are open. Water will find the path of least resistance.

    As Nevele said, the zone valve for the zone you're purging MUST be closed…. that's it. Don't worry about the red ball valve, leave it open.
    Cbarry
  • Cbarry
    Cbarry Member Posts: 13
    Thanks guys. I appreciate all the help