Problem with radiant heat system

troubleshooting

Just wondering if you own a multimeter because you didn't mention anything about testing electrical components. Is the B/W tank piped to the boiler or is 240v connected to the tank? It could be several things but you don't know unless bust out that multimeter. So I don't think your assessment was very good.  Sounds like you might need some more training to familiarize yourself with boilers and how they work and coming to the Wall is a good resource. At the top of the page, look under resources and there's plenty of reading material to get you on your way. Also, check out your suppliers for training classes and support. Good luck

limits to description

chabad . . .



i think the point is that the description of the system design and diagnosis isn't complete enough allow for much substantive response -- at this point can't say whether it is the diagnosis or description that comes up short, but don't be surprised if you're asking for professional perspective on your professional opinion if folks offer criticism.  We have broad shoulders here (what you mean we . . .) so take the water off a duck approach and learn something from every post. That's what I do.



I too am unfamiliar with Bradford and White products.  Their website does not indicate a combination electric water heater such as you appear to be describing (where maybe the electric is intended as backup or to provide hot water during the summer or during service when the boiler is turned off).



Instead Bradford and white list combination gas hot water heaters with heat exchanging coils that would allow you to circulate modest temp water to heating loads by using the stored domestic hot water as a heat source.



If you have model # for the Bradford heater, maybe we can work backwards as to what it is. If the electric is a backup and it is intended to operate principally as an indirect heater with some kind of condensing (or regular) gas boiler as its heat source, maybe its not inappropriate setup at all. 



IS this hotwater for a single residential unit or multiple individual units.  How many people, sounds like 3 zones on the boiler so maybe its several bedrooms all told?



If, indeed, it does have electric back-up that is connected, there shouldn't be a complete lack of domestic hot water if the coil airs up although the electric bill would probably go up more than the gas bill would go down.  But you figure that out when paying bills, not because you don't have any hot water.  MAybe if the symptom is you have hot water but it runs out quickly that would indicate the electric back up isn't keeping up and the coil is aired up. You don't say whether you think you got significant air out of the coil and whether the air bleeding seemed to immediately restart circulation of hot water from the boiler. So I think Slim Pickens was asking whether the aquastat was calling (presumably) and that the circulator was running and/or zone valve called and still there was no hot circulation from the boiler, and following the bleeding there was.  That may be what you mean by hot water beginning to flow but it is unclear from your post as you could also mean that domestic hot water began to flow to fixtures rather than that boiler hot water began to flow to the heater.



 Wouldn't expect it to have transfer problems in such a 'young' installation but maybe there was sediment or other problems that has limitecoil based on your observations, but that still shouldn't account for no HW.  Lukewarm or not keeping up, different story, which is why we need the full story to say much useful.



As to how dirty the water in the heating system is, my experience is that can depend on whether new equipment was placed in service with existing equipment and piping that might have been dirty to begin with, or very [very] occasionally incompatible materials withing new installs.  You don't indicate what heating loads and equipment and approx apparent age the boiler is serving besides this hot water heater, or describe the boiler itself in those terms, so it is difficult to offer any thoughts on why the system is dirty.



Finally, as to electric vs. gas hot water being inappropriate, it sounds like electric is intended as back-up but that is strictly a guess on my part.  So the question of testing whether it is hooked up comes up because it should have been providing hot water regardless of the boiler loop (i.e. getting out that electrical tester along with field observation of whether there seems to be an independent electric service line corresponding to the manufacturers Amperage demand rating running to the heater, and whether that circuit is actually on.) If, in fact, the hot water is dual sourced with a coil capable of serving the DHW load from the boiler and an electric back-up that seems quite and adequate design. It may also be, depending on whether the boiler is highly efficient that the backup is intended to run when the boiler isn't needed for heating. Then a 20 gallon would seem small, but generally, you don't need as much hot water in the summer in the northeast has been my experience so maybe it is still a reasonable compromise.



Even as a principle source I don't rule out Electricover gas depending on usage and venting issues. And the balance is not getting any worse for electric as the northeast is moving more and more to electricity derived from natural gas -- I'm sure if I said we should burn a lot more coal this message board would reverberate for a while, but those discussions are out there if you want to find them.  In the meantime that means that electricity and gas are getting more fungible and their relative costs will track each other for the foreseeable future.



Maybe someone can jump on with the equivalent in KWH of one CCF of gas so you can do some math and see what kind of load the electric company (meet the old boss, same as the new boss, the electric company is the gas company where I come from) is charging to convert the gas to electricity. Obviously there is capital cost for generation equipment and transmission system, but on the other hand, those costs can be spread across virtually all households, because electricity is virtually universal while gas service is more limited.



 I would imagine there is still a modest disadvantage to not buying the raw gas and making the heat yourself, but, depending on your hot water use, you get no combustion, no heat loss up the chimney simpler more effective insulation and simple installs although less recovery, so sized right I wouldn't be an outright naysayer on electric hot water, even if gas is available.



Brian

Reading Everything

It looked to me like he read everything very carefully.  You describe the tank as an "ELECTRIC" Bradford&White storage tank.  Does that mean that it was an electric water heater that was used as a storage tank or that it still used electric heating elements.  Later on in your post you state that one of the problems may have been with the element or the aquastat.  Are you referring to the heating element for the "storage tank"? 

 You posted this same question in the Radiant Heating section and stated " It was definitely set up as a storage tank even a electric heater has a pilot that is accessible this did not It was sealed with no opening therefore a storage tank"

Was there an electrical connection to the "electric storage tank"?

Perhaps the reason that the unit was sealed with no opening was the fact that it was an indirect water heater and not an electric water heater being used as a storage tank?

As the people in both forums are stating, without a lot more information, it will be impossible to answer your questions.

You also state "I was unfamiliar with the set up & personally didn't like it or approve of it.", was your disapproval based upon the fact that you were unfamiliar with exactly what you were looking at or did you fully understand what you were looking at and basing your judgement upon the technical aspects of the installation?

Wrong or Right Diagnosis

Your original post doesn't offer enought information to anwser your original question. You asked a question whether you were on the right path. You left yourself open to critique due to the lack of information. The critique are the guys way of asking you a question for them to be able to provide you their best advice.



Can you post pics or a piping schematic? I could ask more questions like what was your delta-t across the indirect (htrs) supply and return? I think others asked you for the model number so they could get an idea of what you are actually working on. Nothing wrong with critque and not a waste of your time. There are great minds here that think from the science of hydronics to come up with their advice. Most of these minds are the best in the biz. Stick around..

direct vs indirect (posts)

sorry duplicate,



and why does the system keep kicking me out before I post.  I have to sign in to get to a screen to post in the first place.  And then I spend 20 minutes putting something together and go to post it and it has forgotten who I am. I solve the math problem (they're tough but I'm on top of it), but it boots me out to log in again.  MAybe you can change that lag time. I usually go to manufacturers pages or other sources and whatever the timeout it is, it is way too short for me.



brian

don't know what my sign in problem is

steve, thanks for your first person experience. I didn't mean to hijack this thread but I have the problem repeatedly. you can't even get a reply to thread screen without logging in, which I do and then when I got to post my magnum opus it tells me I'm not logged in. Obviously isn't a problem everyone is having.



at least if I just log in it takes me back to my post without losing my work.  I've experienced other websites where failure after clicking "submit" or "post" results in a loss of your post and you have to start over, so a much more minor complaint.