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design temp in Alta, Utah?

Bob Bona_4
Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
in THE MAIN WALL
I was wondering if anyone out west there (M.E.?) has a handle on design temps/climate in Alta, Utah. ASHRAE *says* 5 degrees, but I'm seeing quite a range from the research so far.

I'm doing a Warmboard/Runtal panel design project for a client reno'ing a condo out there. TIA!

Comments

  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Alta

    Sorry I can't help you with a figure for Alta.  Just thought I should mention that though it's close by, don't use the temp figure for Salt Lake. Alta is above Salt Lake in the mountains at the bottom of a narrow box canyon with high mountains on both sides so it gets quite a bit colder than Salt Lake. If you have figures for other places in the area you might want to check the figures for Park City as that would be more comparable to Alta than Salt Lake and even then I'd knock off a degree or so more for Alta as it doesn't get any sun until the afternoon and stays cooler through the day.  The figure I've seen for Salt Lake is 8 degrees so I would consider 5 degrees maybe a bit optimistic.

    - Rod
  • Timco
    Timco Member Posts: 3,040
    design temp

    I will ask a few of my suppliers tomorrow. I am in SLC, and have heard 5-8 for us, but never set an ODR in Alta. It is WAY up the canyon, much higher than us with snow well into summer. Gas book shows a different specific gravity for them as well. Just sent off a text and an email...



    If you need any recommendations for eats or lodging, let me know!



    Tim
    Just a guy running some pipes.
  • Bob Bona_4
    Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
    thanks for

    the great info guys..canyons don't exist here in CT :). The client said today they see 0, to minus often enough.

    Tim, do you think the high altitude will be a consideration in choosing either a TT Solo 110 or a Vitodens?



      
  • Timco
    Timco Member Posts: 3,040
    Degree calc

    http://www.degreedays.net/



    Either should dial in great. Do you have a supplier? I am sure I will hear back tomorrow from a couple reps. Please feel free to email me direct at timco@xmission.com with any needs for parts suppliers.
    Just a guy running some pipes.
  • Bob Bona_4
    Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
    thanks

    At this point, I am the designer, possibly going out to inspect progress. From what the client is telling me, they have a local talent, but unfamiliar/uncomfortable with the system components and anticipated multi temp set up. Wouldn't be a stretch to imagine this turning into packing my tool bag and spending a few weeks there :)

    I have one eye towards spec'ing out homogenous equipment for that region too, for ease of service, and ease of mind!

    I'll send you an email soon, Tim, once I pull together the spec, to see who you use out there for suppliers. Thanks again!
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,120
    Gas fired

    I lived and worked up there in the late 70's. back then it was LP or electric. i believe they finally ran gas up the canyon. These days it is often warmer up the canyons in the winter when the inversions set in :) Sunny, warm, blue sky days at the ski areas while the valley is under a layer of dark haze.



    Consider some solar assist, also. plenty of sunshine at those high elevations.



    I don't remember many days in the single digits or below in the years I lived there. I thing a 0 design would be fine. Is it a vacation home, or all year round?



    hr
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Nick W
    Nick W Member Posts: 200
    A new weather station in Alta

    reports 7 days below zero this past winter, with the low being -10° F.
  • Paul Fredricks_3
    Paul Fredricks_3 Member Posts: 1,557
    Bob

    Be sure to get the info on when you and I can use the condo and ski Alta!
  • Paul Fredricks_3
    Paul Fredricks_3 Member Posts: 1,557
    Bob

    Be sure to get the info on when you and I can use the condo and ski Alta!
  • Bob Bona_4
    Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
    good info

    Thank you HR, pretty sure it's a ski home, they have a home in Newport RI for summering. Good info Nick, and yeah Paul, I would be remiss to not ask about vacancies over the winter! Ever been over in Chappaqua off Rt117? There is a bunch of roads named Breckenridge, etc. I worked on Alta Lane last year, never made the connection, till this came up. Duh!

    Spoke to the plumber there today. Fun fact: they have to oversize the domestic for the end of the day ski rush, showers for 6 at once, washing clothes..80-120 gallon indirect are SOP!



     
  • Tim Potter
    Tim Potter Member Posts: 273
    Design Temp - Alta

    Winter Park, CO, elev 9000',  design is -30*, and I saw very close to that several times this winter.



    http://www.townofalta.com/docs/newsMar09.pdf

    according to the town newsletter Alta's record is -26*



    Happy Skiing - (next winter)



    Tim
    Winter Park, CO & Arvada, CO
  • Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
    Alan (California Radiant) Forbes Member Posts: 4,002
    Alta Design Temp.

    I'm with Tim. 



    I just joined a new gardening website and they want to know what planting zone you live in, finding it by zip code.  I entered Alta's (84092) which comes up with zone 5.



    "Average Annual Minimum Temperature", i.e. design temperature

    Zone 5a (-20/-15F)

    Zone 5b (-15/-10F)



    http://www.gardenweb.com/zones/
    8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour

    Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,120
    another website

    http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/cgi-bin/cliMAIN.pl?ut0072



    shows data back to 1905
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Bob Bona_4
    Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
    eye opener

    I think -5 was optimistic now!  I'm thinking -15 after what you guys are saying (and thank you!). Sound reasonable?
  • Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
    Alan (California Radiant) Forbes Member Posts: 4,002
    Design Temperature

    Yes! You won't get any complaints with that design.  It will make your Runtal radiators a bit bigger and your Warmboard outdoor reset parameters somewhat larger.  Let the owners know what you are doing so they know you are paying attention to their comfort.



    How will you design your multi-temperature system?  Run your mod-con at high temp. with reset for Runtal and mixing valve for Warmboard?  If so, what kind of mixing valve do you prefer?
    8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour

    Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab
  • Bob Bona_4
    Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
    I was

    on the fence with injection mixing, I know the client's home in RI is supposed to have full blown control decadence to the client's dismay, and for the installer's chest thumping :). Client likes it simple. Short of the 'ol three way mix, any viable suggestions above that?

    Does the climate vary rapidly out there to the point that full on ODR will have lag?

    Also mulling oversizing the rads to see the same water temp as the WB for simplicity, but am considering response time frame/usage..warm up the bedrooms, get into bed and call it a day..lights out.

    Another mull: forgo the massive indirect and do a couple of Navien's near demand points so I can match boiler sweet spot to heat load rather than ludicrous size for hot water. Negatives of the wall hungs are: increased complexity and flood prevention if something goes wrong and they are in some closet over/in living space.

    Thanks to you guys, I'm feeling good about the design temp!



     
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