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GB 142 is leaking water

ScottMP
ScottMP Member Posts: 5,884
Are you running anit-freeze in the system ?

Put the photos on your computer and then clic on "attachments" ( its at the bottom of the orange screen when posting ) it should walk you thru the process.

Scott

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Comments

  • steve_162
    steve_162 Member Posts: 4
    Problem with my GB 142 boiler, any help?

    I walked down into my basement to find that my Buderus GB 142 boiler was dripping water onto the floor. This must be new because I was down there yesterday and did not see anything. When I took off the cover I noticed some condensation on the top cover and that the consensation trap was full of sludge. When I took it out I noticed a grey/silver paste on the top and that it seemed as though it was filled with a thick liquid. There was a low water pressure message on the screen P03 and can tell you that we have it connected to a side arm water heater. We have not turned on the heat in the last 6 months and only hear the boiler fire to heat water. The system is less than two years old. Any help would be appreciated.

    Steve
  • Brian
    Brian Member Posts: 285
    Propane

    Is your system running on propane.Some pictures of the system would help.

    Dobber
  • steve_162
    steve_162 Member Posts: 4
    Yes, GB is running off of propane.

    When the system was first installed it was never converted from Nat Gas, we had a CO problem but the company came out and converted it quickly. I did end up rinsing out the condensation trap and filling it with fresh water. It does not appear to be leaking any more water but I will call our local tech to some and service it. It has not been serviced since we installed it 18 months ago.
    How do I add photos?
  • D107
    D107 Member Posts: 1,849
    18 months too long without maintenance

    HO here--from everything I've read and heard about the GB 142, like many mod-cons it needs to be carefully cleaned/ maintained annually as per the manual.
  • Mud in your trap...

    indicates to me that you are operating in a dusty enviroment. I had one do that, and it was on a barn, surrounded by open stables, with lots of live stock raising dust. Installed an air filter in line with the incoming air, placed a magnehelic gauge across the filter, and am monitoring it for required service level.

    At present, it has been runnning for 6 months with no hick ups, no mud in the trap, and no discernable pressure drop across the filter.

    ME
  • steve_162
    steve_162 Member Posts: 4
    Pictures of the install

    Here are a few pictures new and old of the install. I have included a picture of the liquid that we emptied out of the condensate trap. The message on the screen is P00, H7, 2E, 207, 66. The boiler has stopped leaking but could it have been becasue of the trap or why would the water be leaking from the seal just above the trap?
  • Brian
    Brian Member Posts: 285
    Nice Job

    It looks likes the same stuff that I pulled out of a 1 yr. old GB that I did.Before anyone suggests that a combustion test should have been done,it was. It seems that on most of my GB installs that are on propane have a certain amount in the trap.The ones that have the most are from a certain propane supplier in our area.Assuming a combustion test was done after the propane conversion was done, then either you may want to change propane suppliers or clean your condensate trap on a regular basis.Before and after your heating season would be my recommendation.Yearly servicing with a combustion test is still required.

    Good Luck
    Dobber
  • ScottMP
    ScottMP Member Posts: 5,884
    WHY ?

    Why install such nice work with a great boiler and then Install set point thermostatic mixing valves ?? I don't get it nor do I see the comfort ??

    It is nice to see in the photos that someone decided to install the acid neutraliser and drain. I was afraid this job was left with a Bucket.

    Dobber, you think this is from the Propane ? I was afraid it was a breakdown of the boiler from the wrong anti-freeze.

    Scott

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  • steve_162
    steve_162 Member Posts: 4
    Anti freeze?

    Where would the anti freeze have gone, in the condensate trap?
  • Lil-Roc
    Lil-Roc Member Posts: 50


    I agree this is a very well done install. Looks great, but the thermostatic mixing valves although you save on install costs you lose on comfort control. Why is the condnsate draining into a bucket?
  • Lil-Roc
    Lil-Roc Member Posts: 50


    never mind. I looked back at other pics and see that a drain line was added
  • Dobber
    Dobber Member Posts: 91
    Propane

    I guarantee that it is from the propane.That is a condensate TRAP.Thats what they do.It will trap sediment and allow the condensate to pass by.If the build up is too much then it will back up into the hx.It's a lot easier to clean a trap than an hx.

    Dobber
    If you don't have time to do it right, what makes you think you have time to do it over?
  • ScottMP
    ScottMP Member Posts: 5,884
    Dobber

    The silver/grey color would have me worried. WHy would the Propane do that ? Any idea ?

    It worries me since the HX is Aluminum.

    Scott

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  • scott markle_2
    scott markle_2 Member Posts: 611
    silver grey

    I have been surprised by the amount of gunk in the vitodens traps I have recently serviced. Anyway the sludge I'm finding is a redish brown (iron oxide like) not silver. That silvery stuff sure looks like aluminum. Which worries me because I have several gb's in as well.

    As far as all those setpiont mix valves.I would agree that it is not the best design strategy. Looks to me like the job has only one high temp zone. I would guess that the mix valves are set very close to the same temp, with the exception of the basement slab. Those valves pretty much defeat the boilers reset control and reduce the low temp zones to bing/bang thermostatic control. All backwards, the less responsive low temp zones would benefit the most from variable temp, but in this case it is the responsive high temp zone that gets it.

    Seems like only way to avoid this without the expense and complication of multiple mixing/injection, is to avoid the need for widely different temps in the first place. There is also the Tn4 approach which is more tolerant of differing temp. requirements. by it's intelligent/integrated control of flow in addition to temp.

    It does seem a shame that mechanics doing such nice work stop short of best technology solutions, considering that the extra cost is fairly modest relative to what is already being spent.
  • Perry_3
    Perry_3 Member Posts: 498
    Designed to fail... Aluminum HX's

    It is a design feature of Aluminum HX to corrode due to the acedic condensation in a condensing boiler.

    The designers of Aluminum HXs add thickness to the HX's so that it should take "X" number of years for the HX to corrode through. They just don't tell us what the X is (and this is why the Aluminum HX's are so much thicker than SS HX's - completely negating the better themal performance of the material - although they claim it in adds which is misleading).

    So yes, the silverish grey stuff is Aluminum corrosion product.

    How long will your HX last? Who knows. But, don't exect it to last a long time.

    This is one of the reason that I only considered SS HXs. The other is likely long term problems on the water side - unless you maintain a really unusual degree of control on the water side chemistry for a home heating system.

    Aluminin HX's: Cheap to produce and designed to fail in a specific amount of time (and could fail very very fast if you loose control of your water chemistry - which would not be covered by warrantee).

    Both natural gas and propane/butane are natural and only partially refined products. The amount of sulfer and some other compounds can vary widely. The more acedic the combustion products are - the faster a Aluminium HX will get eaten up. You may need to clean the trap more often in those cases.

    Also, the condensate needs to be run through a nuetrilization bucket (or device) before hitting the floor drains to prevent damage to your drain piping (unless you would like to Dig up your basement and yard in the future and replace it for giggles.

    A 5 gallon bucket filled with marble or limestone chips - built in a way that forces the water flow though the chips (say drain into a center pipe that runs near the bottom of the pail - forcing the acedic water to the bottom - with a drain from the side near the top - forcing the acedic water to perculate up through the rock chips). Alternately, companies like Viessman makes a drain neutralization device for their mod/cons.

    Oh.. and before anyone thinks that SS HX's are totally problem free... They can be affected by a certain amount of chlorine. If you are in a city or municipal chlorinated water system - I'd install a simple carbon filter on the boiler fill water as it will kill any chlorine. This is a cheap way to maximize the life of a SS HX.

    Perry
  • ScottMP
    ScottMP Member Posts: 5,884
    SO Perry

    You say that Buderus is selling us a product that has finite life and is probable known the manufacturer ?

    We've been told it has been used in Europe for quite some time now. How long do YOU say its going to last ??

    Scott

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  • Perry_3
    Perry_3 Member Posts: 498
    I did a fair amount of research on European sites a year ago

    I spent many hours (like several days) researching sites in Europe to find out.

    I found a number of sites where installing contractors had posted the problems with the AL HX boilers - and in most of those cases those contractors would not be willing to install another one.

    Somewhere in the archives of the Wall is a listing of some of the sites and some of the problems reported.

    It is one thing to say that these have been available in Europe for a number of years. It is another to say that they have lasted in Europe for a number of years. The sense I got was that the 1st generation ones didn't last long at all (couple of years); and that the current ones were more robust - but that problems within 5 years was common.

    I did not find a single site anywhere that claimed a long life on these (say 10 years or greater).

    I did find some unique solutions that would mitigate some of the concerns on the European sites.

    Internal Galvanic Corrosion:

    Note that Aluminim is actually used as the sacrificial anode for galvanic protection of certain steel tanks. Why would anyone think an AL HX connected to a Steel (or Iron) heating system would last?


    In Europe I found the use AL Radiators and AL fittings for new systems that would use an AL HX boiler. Piping via PEX. That eliminates any galvainc corrosion problem of connecting AL to steel or Copper.

    I also note that if the entire system is PEX or AL then the chemistry limits on the heating system water can be relaxed.

    Concering the combustion side corrosion: I understand that the current HX's are beefier than the originals. But, you cannot stop the process. The acedic condensate will continually eat the AL HX until it leaks. And Yes, the Mfr's have to know about this (this is high school level chemistry).

    SS HX's are generally immune to this combustion side effect (unless contaminated by certain chemicals on the combustion side --- watch where the air inlet is - you want clean fresh air).

    What I want is for someone to show that AL HX's in a normal installation and with normal maintenance will almost always last. I don't know of one shread of evidence on that - and a lot that says they fail.

    Is checking the pH and chemical adjustment of heating circuit water each year or so "normal" - and can you really competently do it? All the AL HX boiler Mfrs that I studied specifically excluded HX failures from improper heating circuit water chemistry. How many of you even set up proper chemistry on an initial installation. Perhaps a few - but, is that what the normal installation contractor does?

    Cast Iron will never be for high efficiency furnaces.

    AL is cheap buy has limited life.

    SS can last forever assuming you keep chlorine and some other chemicals away from it.

    Perry
  • ScottMP
    ScottMP Member Posts: 5,884
    Perry

    Could you post the address of those sites ? I am sure there are plenty of us that would be interested. I can't find the post and if you spent several days reading them you must have the sites somewhere.

    Also for information, Buderus has a limited lifetime warranty on their Aluminum block boilers. First ten years is 100 % replacement. Thats sounds pretty confident for a large company.

    Scott

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  • singh
    singh Member Posts: 866
    Allow me to quibble.

    Perry,
    I don't think you should be making these statements about Aluminum HX's.

    And Aluminum IS NOT a cheap metal. The mining and manufacturing process is much greater than most metals, there is a large electrical consumption in the process that makes it expensive to charge the aluminum and extract it.

    Nefit has had these units in Europe for some time, I too did as much research as possible. If you have definitive proof, please post it!!

    I sell these boilers, it's one way I put food on the table, I try to educate my clients as much as possible, there is far too much junk information out there on the net already, I don't need a client telling me the equipment is cheap because it has Aluminum in it.

    So far , I have confidence in the product, it it fails tomorrow, I'd be upset , in 12-15 years if the HX fails , I am satisfied and the product has performed well, as it should have.



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