Welcome! Here are the website rules, as well as some tips for using this forum.
Need to contact us? Visit https://heatinghelp.com/contact-us/.
Click here to Find a Contractor in your area.

Burnham Revolution Boiler Problems!!!

pennron
pennron Member Posts: 48
Hi:

I guess the knock on Burnham was because for the last 3 months I intensly tried to get some answers from them and nobody will talk to you. They have the receptionist trained not to transfer HO to tech. support, because of insurance regulations. However, on their website you can email a problem to tech support so I don't see where that makes sense. BTW, I did write to them but of course, no answer ever came.

When Glenn Stanton, a Burnham tech person, replied to this thread, I almost fell off my chair. Holy cow, Burnham exists!! Even my HVAC co. is having problems getting answers from Burnham.

Hey, I just need some simple answers from Burnham and they're not forthcoming. I even wrote a detailed email to Mr. Stanton and have not heard back from him. Yes its only a short time but you know what? I spent thousands and thousands on their equipment so lets let it all hang out. Burnham products are very good and starting with my dad, going way back we have been Burnham customers. But their service is HORRIBLE (lately). With that said...

I have the Revolution I and I'm not married to my HVAC in Easton. If you know of someone who can help me in this PARTICULAR SITUATION, I'm all ears. Thank You..
«1

Comments

  • pennron
    pennron Member Posts: 48
    Burnham Revolution Boiler Problems!!!

    hi:

    I am under the impression that I am using too much gas in my 2yr 2400 sq. ft ranch home located in Easton, PA. I really don’t know for sure because the home has no history on usage. I am comparing myself to a similar home up the block. We both have the same model ranch but mine is larger. I am using 35% more fuel. My entire heating bill from September '05 to August '06 was $1887 or 1124 cubic feet of gas. I have a gas boiler, gas dryer, cook top and gas barbecue. Only 2 people live here. My home is 350 sq.ft. larger than my friends. He has forced hot air I have hot water, slant fin high output multi/pak 80 3/4" copper baseboard, with a Burnham revolution rv5 boiler, indirect water heater, 3 zones using Taco circulators and Honeywell VisionPro 8000 stat.

    I just believe that with all the money spent here on a 87% efficient hydronic system, zoned that my gas bill is out of line compared to a similar house with forced hot air.

    What I need to know is why does this boiler have to be set at 210 degrees. The HVAC wants to install an outdoor reset but someone at Burnham tech said it cant be done or not a good idea because the boilers circulator needs this high temp. to operate correctly??? Burnham told my HVAC that their own control, the EC5000, which states in the literature that it will work on any Burnham residential boiler, will not work with the Revolution.

    Its possible that the boiler was oversized (I know, wow what a shock). I didn’t have a heat/loss calc. when I built the house so I used the yellow pages and found someone who did it by faxing him the small blueprint of my ranch and giving him as much data as I had as the house was being built. He came up with an 84,000 heat loss. Meanwhile I find out (2 yrs later) that the HVAC company that did my cooling did a heat/loss calc. I have a copy of it and the specs on the size of the rooms is very accurate. In the calculation they didn’t include insulation in the first floor joists and didn’t include the Burnham Alliance indirect water heater. Just about everything else looks good except they have more baseboard allowance but I assume its based on standard size baseboard while I'm using the multi/pak 80 high output.

    They came up with a 68,000 loss w/o the insulation and water heater included. The Revolution rv4's net is 73,000 and the rv5 which I have is 99,000. They are re-doing the calc this week to get it as exact as possible.

    My questions are (based on the assumption the boiler is oversized and I am using too much fuel):

    Do you think I’m using too much fuel?

    Why does this boiler have a set limit of 210?

    Why can’t I use the EC5000 or any outdoor reset?

    Do you think Beckett's heat manager will work?
  • Rob_32
    Rob_32 Member Posts: 50


    HO here with a new (~2 weeks old) Revolution. Control is a tekmar 260 and this setup seems easy, appropriate and a no-brainer for that boiler.

    1) your heat loss seems a high, unless you have a very loose house. What's the ODT and what kind of insulation and windows? e.g., I've got 2100 sf, an ODT of 5F, and heat loss is ~50k BTU/hr at IDT of 70F. If your heat loss is high, then you are probably oversized.

    2) how much of that 35% is eaten up by the gas dryer, grill, etc? Your house is also 15% bigger. Does it face the same direction, have the same solar gain, wind exposure, other gas appliances, insulation, etc. etc.?

    3) the 210F is for the VS3000 mixing control to run the internal primary/secondary loop. Do not lower it. The differential on the vs3000 is ~30F so the control can have long efficient burns and still keep the return temps from truly condensing, as well as control the speed of the internal circ. It runs the internal pump at slower speeds at lower return temps. I think the crossover point between lo and high is around 160-170F.

    4) you can use the EC5000, I believe, or use a tekmar 260 to run the space heating and the indirect if you want a somewhat simpler control. I think the EC5000 is really a tekmar house control of some ilk. The outdoor reset will control the supply temp coming out of the boiler, not the internal vs3000 and mixing/injection setup.

    I would not use the Beckett product on this boiler.

    Sure you might use less fuel with a mod/con.

    No clue about how to compare a forced air house energy use to hydronic.
  • pennron
    pennron Member Posts: 48


    hi:

    hey thank you for the very informative explanation of my revolution. I'm not kidding, I haven't gotten any information like this in about a year.

    Ok I believe my home is tight. Its 3 yrs old. I have 4 velux skylights with the most efficient glass. I have pella windows, low "e" argon and therma tru steel and fiberglass doors. no air leaks. The full basement has r13 or 19 in the floor joists, the walls have whatever code was in '03 (r11?)and the attic has blown in insulation (r30?).

    My home and my buddy's face the same but his home is higher and there is more wind there. We had the same builder, his home is 5 yrs old. he has capital windows, dbl pane no skylights. he uses his gas fireplace i never use mine and have the pilot light off.I have no idea how much gas i use with the dryer, 4 loads a week, 2 white, 2 colored. How can you figure that? The cooktop and gas barbecue I would think use minimal amts of gas. we only use them occasionally.

    I also have my stat for the main zone programed M/F overnight 66 and daytime 67...at 5pm -11pm its 71 and on w/e the daytime settings are a little higher. So I definitely am not keeping the house very warm until the bride comes home. The bedroom zone is 69 at night with a cheap honeywell non prog. stat.

    I have the heat/loss calc and it states (and remember the insulation in the floor joists and the indirect WH are not included and they have 1 ceiling a lower height than it really is) says SUPPLY CFM AT 20 DEG DT: 1,569. total heating req. w/outside air: 67.846 MBH.

    I know its hard to calculate if I am using too much fuel but I just feel that I'm being stingy with the heat and my bills are a little on the high side. what do you pay for fuel? how does it compare with me or others in this house size? I tried to make the home as efficient as possible. My electric bills avg. only $75 a month. so when I see my gas bills 2 1/2 times i think they did something wrong here. also my next door neighbor who has a 3000 sq ft home, 2 story is using the same amt of gas within 50 ft of me (by the meter). They installed our meters within a few weeks of each other, don't remember who's went in first but thats a 3 year reading

    I paid big bucks for this system and I feel like I got ripped off.
  • Mark Hunt
    Mark Hunt Member Posts: 4,909
    pennron


    Click on the "Find A Pro" portion of this site.

    You have some serious issues and not just with your house.

    Mark H

    To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
  • pennron
    pennron Member Posts: 48


    > You have some serious issues and not

    > just with your house.


    hi:
    what does that mean?
  • PennRon

    In order to achieve the maximum operating efficiency out of any hot water boiler, it has to be sized correctly to the building heat loss. If you are using an indirect water heater, then I would advise sizing the boiler to the largest of the two loads, heat loss or hot water, and considering priority wiring for the indirect.

    Our tech reps were correct when they told you the EC-5000 will not work well with the Revolution. This is because it was engineered to operate with our low mass steel boiler or LE boiler which requires a minimum operating temperature of 135°F. The Revolution can and does operate well with a control device such as the Tekmar 260 control. It is also quite simple to create priority control of the Indirect with this control as well provided you have a multiple zone relay panel for your heating zone circulators. The difference with an Outdoor Reset control such as the Tekmar is that it establishes something above and beyond boiler efficiency or System Efficiency.

    By modulating the System water temperature to match the outdoor climatic conditions at any given moment, you will appreciate significant fuel savings as well as a dramatic increase in comfort. If set and controlled properly you may not even know the system is even on and running. With the Revolution boiler you won't have to be concerned about system return water lower than 135°F affecting the boiler because it can handle return water as cold as 55°F.In order for the internal bypass pump to function properly, you will need the high limit of the boiler at 210°F though. Granted you will be making 210°F in the boiler but you can control the system water temperature to a much lower state without the need for additional primary-secondary or other system piping methods.The boiler in this case simply becomes an injection device to target your desired system water temperature. Hope this helps clarify things a bit.

    Glenn Stanton

    Manager of Training

    Burnham Hydronics

    U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.
  • Constantin
    Constantin Member Posts: 3,796
    Hi Penronn

    I'm a fellow HO and I don't know whether the heat loss is appropriate or not. However, if the calculated heat loss is correct, then you have an oversized boiler, though not as grossly oversized as some homes we've seen here.

    First, I would start with a room-by-room heat loss calculation. You've got that, so on to the next step. Now examine the heat emitters you have in there, then determine how hot they have to get on a design-day to keep you warm. The manufacturer of the emitter usually publishes output curves or you might need to call them. Outputs may or may not be linear, so I would not extrapolate.

    Whatever the hottest emitter needs are will then become the hottest temperature to run the heating circuit at. If that temperature is lower than the safe limit of the boiler for much of the year, I would consider a mixing solution to decouple the boiler temperature from the heating circuit temperature. If one room needs far hotter water than other rooms, you might consider adding more emitter in that room to bring the required temperature down.

    I find the alleged earlier statement from Burnham that OR is not compatible with their boiler to be puzzling and Glenn Stantons response makes much more sense. I doubt that a boiler needs to run at 210 all year, particularly to protect a circulator. Circulators like cooler, not hotter water. So, I think that retrofitting a proper outdoor reset module is the way to go. Whether you go with Burnham, Tekmar, or any other controller is up to you to decide.

    Just be sure that the boiler is protected from flue gas condensation by either running it hot enough or by being protected via one of the many options out there: mixing, bypass valves, etc.
  • Dale
    Dale Member Posts: 1,317
    gas use

    Couple of things, unless your house has the old micro tube design where 3/8 inch copper tube was run to baseboard I can't see why you would need 210 degree water given your heat loss and system capacity. Also are you sure your outside grill isn't leaking gas? I would turn down the stat someday so the boiler doesn't run, not use any of the other gas appliances and mark the test dial hands on the gas meter with a grease pencil or piece of tape and check for movement after 1/2 hour or so to make sure no gas is going somewhere by accident. I'm guessing no standing pilots. Make sure no makeup water is entering the boiler, use the test dial on the water meter while you sleep and before you use the bath in the am. Then, if that shows good do your own heat loss to determine what water temp is needed. Who knows perhaps your pump isn't working and the poor thing is trying to be a gravity boiler. Good luck, let us know what the root cause is determined to be.
  • pennron
    pennron Member Posts: 48


    hi:

    thank you guys so much for your input. I just sent Glenn Stanton a more detailed email but I can post it here also. Its long so thats why I didnt.

    To answer some of the questions: the home is not even 3 yrs old. the plumber used a simple loop system, 3 loops, 3 zones with priority indirect DHW as the 4th zone. all radiators are slant fin high output 80 copper fin with 3/4" copper piping type L or M (the better one, I forget which that is). The supply and return boiler pipes are 1 1/4" NPT. I have taco 007 circulators and 2 programmable stats and 1 non programmable. I have pella windows, the house is tight.

    I truly don't understand the answer about the emitters and sizing. I am a research type HO and not a pro at this stuff. This is a learning experience. If a pro tells me to do something I'll weigh and research it. Thats my personality. So right now I truly wish I could get someone here to do some type of audit and heat/loss calc. Look everything over and make recommendations and I'm ready to do the work, if any is needed.

    If no one can do that who is knowledgeable and trustworthy then I am going on Glenn Stanton's recommendation of using the Tekmar 260 and having Hanaberry HVAC do the install. Glenn is manager of training at Burnham Hydronics so who else for me to listen to. Unfortunately it took a longtime for me to get an answer from Burnham. Anymore input is always graciously appreciated. I have a file and knowledge is power. Thanks much.
    Ron
  • Mark Hunt
    Mark Hunt Member Posts: 4,909
    What I meant

    was that there are some seriously wacky things going on with your heating system.

    I think you know that the boiler is over-sized.

    Outdoor reset definately saves money.

    You may also want to look into having an energy audit performed on your home. A blower door test will tell you just how much leakage your home has. Remember, fiber glass insulation dores not stop air leakage, it just slows it down. Even new homes leak, sometimes quite a bit.

    I think that if you find a good pro in your area, yourt system can be brought under control.

    Best of luck!

    Mark H

    To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
  • Constantin
    Constantin Member Posts: 3,796
    It's pretty simple...

    ... first, you find out what the heat loss is in each room, then you size the emitter to meet that loss at a certain temperature. Each kind of emitter has a different output curve but since we know what you have (slant fin), we can go backwards and see what temperature water you need to keep the room at whatever temperature you want for a given heat loss.

    For example, let's say that your home features the 83-A2 variety of slant-fin's 80 series. In your living room, you have a calculated design-day heat loss of 6,000 BTU and 10 feet of baseboard. Going through the chart for the 80's series, you discover that the approximate water temperature required to produce 6,000BTU/hr with 10' of baseboard is about 160°F (i.e. your baseboard has to emit about 600BTU/hr per foot of emitter to cover the heat loss on a design day).

    Simply repeat the exercise until you find the highest required water temperature, now you know where the upper bound of your required system water temperature is. If the limit is quite low, your system may be a candidate for mixing.
  • Rob_35
    Rob_35 Member Posts: 33


    FWIW, what Glenn describes is my system exactly (revolution and tekmar 260 with priority on indirect), and I really like it so far. Only difference is I'm running the indirect at ~140F and tempering down, so the boiler is sized to the house load.

    Interesting about the EC5000. I stand corrected.
  • Bill de Jong
    Bill de Jong Member Posts: 15
    BURNHAM REVOLUTION

  • Bill de Jong
    Bill de Jong Member Posts: 15
    BURNHAM REVOLUTION PROBLEM

    Pennron,
    I have encountered this very same scenario at a residence out here in Alberta (Western Canada). The cause for the higher gas consumption out here was twofold: System installation and the fact that the customer had gas appliances (dryer & range which are not near so efficient as your boiler). It doesn't sound like you have much of a system problem. I will bet a good lunch that your Hydro bill is miniscule compared to your neighbors. Outdoor reset control is a great idea as has been suggested by some of the writers on this topic and the 260 would work great for you. You could buy the Tekmar 363 which would give you more control than you really need, but has the capability of monitoring the number of hours your boiler fires. This would give you the info you need to determine if your boiler is problematic.

    Cheers!
  • pennron
    pennron Member Posts: 48


    hi:

    I will try what one writer wrote about the emitters tonight by doing some calculations. I will also check into that Tekmar 363. If the word "hydro" means electric, then yes you are correct I do use much much less electric than my neighbor. Last years electric bill was $911. That with a 42" monogram fridge, a stand-up freezer, central air on 74 day/night, computers, lights, dw, elec. oven etc. however, back to this topic.

    I am trying to arrange for a whole house audit by someone who knows this boiler inside and out. I want them to check the entire system and then do whatever is necessary. The problem that I see is in PA you don't have to be licensed to do plumbing, design, installation type work, so just about anyone can write a name on a truck door and pass themselves off as a contractor.

    I will try my best, hopefully with a recommendation from Burnham on which way to procede. Thanks again.
    Ron
  • Cosmo_3
    Cosmo_3 Member Posts: 845
    my 2 cents

    I will not say anything you haven't already heard


    I would recommend;

    Get a blower door test. This is a test that can tell you what the ACTUAL infiltration rate is in your home. Not many heating contractors have the equipment to do such a test. You will probably have to hire a separate company for this.

    Then have a heat loss done on the structure, taking into account the infiltration rate found with the blower door test. In my opinion any heating contractor should be able to do his own heat loss. But many farm this out to a supply house salesman that may be too busy to come out to your home and inspect the construction, and visible insulation of your home. Many times the actual home differs greatly from the one in the blueprint. You have the option to hire an engineer to do this for you also. Yes it will cost a couple more bucks for the P.E. on his last name but it is an option, and that is what they do, and well albeit usually on a larger scale.

    Now how does the heat loss compare to the net BTU output rating of your boiler? It is pretty standard practice for guys to go up to the next size boiler. For example if your house heat loss is 70,000btu, and you have a 80 or 90,000 btu boiler installed. It is common to oversize by much more, but a little oversizing is unfortunately pretty standard because designer/installers know that they will hear more complaints for being undersized, than over-sized!

    I myself try to size as close as possible to load or just a tad under, and we know from experience that we can get away with a boiler that is just big enough or little smaller because most heat-loss programs have at least a 5-10 percent cushion built in.

    Do an audit of the heat emitters. List the length of fin tube in each room, and how much to each zone loop. If you have more heat emitter than you need at 180 degrees, then with an outside reset control you can dial down the water temperature sent out to the heat emitters to gain more system efficiency. [edit] In fact even if you need 170-180 degree F water an outside reset still helps, as here we have many mildly cold days compared to frigid design days.

    I like Tekmar products.

    There are good contractors in your area. I know of a really good one in Easton. I am also familiar with the company you mentioned, and since you have said that you have already picked one I do not want to step on some other guys shoes, as I am also in the Lehigh Valley. If you follow the above steps, you can be armed with the right knowledge to understand the problem and can proceed to come up with solutions.

    Burnham makes very good products and I think that although it may not have been intentional it is too bad the thread headline has to knock a brand name when the blame probably lies elsewhere.

    Hopefully you get things straightened out, and you get your gas bills down as far as possible....

    Good luck!



    Cosmo
  • Cosmo_3
    Cosmo_3 Member Posts: 845
    which model boiler do you have?

    Revolution, or Revolution II?


    Cosmo
  • PennRon

    You had better check your e-mail again because I did respond to your e-mail the same day that you sent it to me. Perhaps you have an Spam blocker running that you have not checked lately for blocked messages. Forthwith, here is a copy of that response to you for the whole world to see.

    From: Glenn Stanton
    To: BROOKLNRON@aol.com
    Date: Tuesday - October 24, 2006 5:36 PM
    Subject: Re: hi glenn re:revolution problems

    Ron,

    Thanks for the thorough explanation of your situation. There are any number of things that can cause your heating bill to be higher than your friend's or neighbors bill and many of them have nothing to do with the boiler itself. In this e-mail and your post on "The Wall" you mentioned that you have skylights where your friend does not. Usually when I envision skylights I also see lofted ceilings and along with those usually come ceiling mounted recessed lighting or "can lights". Construction methodology involving these lights usually involves leaving insulation away from direct contact with the housings unless you have the newer style that can have insulation in contact with them. I often can tell from the road houses that have these types of lights because I inevitibly see circles of melted snow on the roof when I drive by. Heated air rises and infiltrates through those housings and right through the roof accounting for tremendous heat losses. If you do not have these types of lights then ignore this paragraph.

    Other things that can cause higher than normal gas consumption would be the gas piping to the appliance (adequate sizing) and the amount of gas pressure you may be getting through that piping. Inadequate flow and volume due to undersizing of piping as well as lower than desired gas pressure can account for abnormally long run cycles whereby it takes much longer to achieve the limit in the boiler. This can also be caused by a gas meter that is not allowing the volume through correctly.

    Some other things to look for would involve the baseboard radiation. Check for proper flow of air convecting through these units. We often see installations where the baseboard was installed then carpet and padding installed afterwards. In many cases the pad and tack strip was installed right under the baseboard choking down the amount of available air for convection dramatically. No air.....no convection! In one instance the guy that put the carpet in curled it under the heaters, up and under the element and trimmed it off even with the front cover up inside. In this instance....no air convection. Also make sure that the dampers on the baseboard radiation are all open. We often see where the painters will paint the units and end up painting the dampers shut.

    As far as having someone available that you can pay to do an analysis, unfortunately that is something that we do not get involved in. Best I can do is offer some of my experiences such as the ones above and advise having check out the actual operation of the boiler and related gas transmission piping. All of these factors in some way can certainly make heating costs more expensive. Lastly, look into the Tekmar control system as it will always end up trying to heat your home with the coolest water permissable instead of fully heated water all of the time. Hope this helps.

    Glenn



    Hope this proves to you that we are a company who responds and listens. If you had posted a message on this web site and several others anytime during the last 6 to 7 years, I would have seen it and responded as well. Our technical services staff must be available for the installation and service technicians that need assistance on a daily basis and that is why the calls from homeowners are handled by the Customer Service agents. The questions that are posted on our website are read every day by the technical staff and most are redirected to either me or Ron Beck for followup. If I had received one from you I would have responded promptly to that as well. In any case we will always need to speak with the contractor or installation company because there are always questions that can only be answered by them.

    Glenn Stanton

    Manager of Training

    Burnham Hydronics

    U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.
  • pennron
    pennron Member Posts: 48
    burnham support and revolution

    Glenn:

    I just received your email. It is now 11:40pm. here is the header: Re: Burnham Revolution Boiler Problems!!!
    Date: 10/25/2006 11:34:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time
    From: gstanton@burnham.com
    Reply To:
    To: brooklnron

    ok, yes I am frustrated no doubt. I have been calling every week for the last 12 weeks, speaking to CS, then switched to vendors, switched to someone else yada yada who know nothing about this boiler. This was my first post to this forum. I didn't know how informative it would be and that Burnham techs like you respond to Burnham questions. If I did know I would not have wasted 12 weeks of aggravation.

    Again, time after time "people in the know" just don't understand why this boiler has a set limit of 210 degrees. Everyone seems to think that the standard temp. should be 180 so there is much confusion on this. In addition my own EXPERIENCED HVAC Co. is actually getting the information from ME thanks to this thread because they can't get it from Burnham. Ain't that a kicker!

    If you buy a Toyota you go back there for service, parts etc. While Burnham is in a different industry and they seem to only sell their products, they should at least offer some guidence to a HO who has spent over $6,000 on their product plus countless $$$ for labor. Put yourself in my position. Where do I turn. I cannot understand why Burnham doesn't say, go to so and so, they are an authorized Burnham dealer who is certified and trained in all our boilers!

    Unfortunately, my frustration, which still exists, has turned this thread from a gas usage one into a Burnham (TECH SERVICE) bashing one. When a HO cannot speak to someone in the know at Burnham or at least get an email response and CS tells them to go thru an HVAC and then they don't get any answers, where do I turn? No one at Burnham tech told Hanaberry, after getting a detailed description of what is going on here, to use a Tecmar 260. They just told them that the EC5000 doesn't work even though Burnhams own literature says it does. Do you think somebody at BURNHAM should investigate that? Change the darn literature on your website. The info on the Tekmar 260 came from this thread.

    As far as the canned lights near the skylights, I don't have any. There are only 2 rugs in the smaller bedrooms and they are properly installed. The dampers have never been closed. I did explore the possiblity of having UGI GAS coming out here last spring to change the meter but the CS said 99.9% there is nothing wrong with the meter. However, I will be having the meter looked at by UGI either way now. There's 1" black pipe coming in from the meter reduced to 1/2" pipe going to the Revolution. Hanaberry is doing their 1st annual maintenance on 11/14 and they will check the pressure and other routine things.
  • JohnNY
    JohnNY Member Posts: 3,226
    More Revos this year than ever before

    Putting to rest my fear of the unknown, Burnham's tech support has helped me to understand what makes the Revolution an excellent choice for increased efficiency in a residential application.
    I'm selling and installing more and more of them lately.
    Here I've used the Taco PC700 outdoor reset control with an EXP relay.
    I really like this combination.

    To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
    Contact John "JohnNY" Cataneo, NYC Master Plumber, Lic 1784
    Consulting & Troubleshooting
    Heating in NYC or NJ.
    Classes
  • Ron

    That e-mail was sent when I said it was sent and not last night at 11:40 pm. I'm not quite sure what you think you are going to get accomplished by being so argumentive, but just to let you know in advance, posts like these don't set well with me. I always have and always will do what I can to help anyone that may be having difficulties with any of our products.

    To put this thing to rest, as you refer to it, I just spoke to our local area representative for the Allentown area and he will be contacting Hanaberry HVAC to discuss your situation. The folks at Hanaberry indeed know him and have all of his contact information as well. He is and has been their source for information if and when they need it. No matter what the product or what company you are dealing with, this is the proper channel for getting anything accomplished when difficulties arise and always has been.

    Glenn Stanton

    Manager of Training

    Burnham Hydronics

    U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.
  • Dan Foley
    Dan Foley Member Posts: 1,258
    Burnham

    I have always found Burnham to have excellent support, from our local TM, tech support, right up to the top of the company. Also, if you are questioning Glenn's integrity regarding the timing of the e-mail, I think you are barking up the wrong tree. Glenn's as honest as the day is long! Best of luck! -DF

    To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
  • Thanks John!

    The Taco control is a very good option especially when used in conjunction with their multizone EXP relays. Plug-N-Play is a very sweet thing indeed!

    Glenn Stanton

    Manager of Training

    Burnham Hydronics

    U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.
  • Rob_35
    Rob_35 Member Posts: 33
    unjustified, I think

    Back when I had a Series2 boiler, questions (some of them quite technical about firing rates, retrofitting EI controls and such) emailed to the Burnham tech department received prompt and thorough responses.

    Glenn has been a true notch above in providing information and insight as I designed my new heating system around a Revolution.

    My installer has done a bunch of Revolutions, but by sheer force of habit he turned the aquastat down to 180F on the day of the install. I pointed it out and he said "oops, not right for this boiler" and put it right back to 210F.

    The mixing scheme and internal primary/secondary piping that requires the 210F is a pretty neat way, IMHO, of allowing a CI boiler to avoid condensing in the HX. I viewed it as "everything in one box" and that has borne out in practice. It went in easily with a standard piping setup.

    The tekmar control makes it, though. It's neat to see how the supply temp, the internal loop temp, variable speed circulator, etc. all work together.

    Good luck.
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
    hey ! I like that combo too:)

    that looks like a great heat plant.

    i can tell by looking at it ,it is a Burnham.

    the variable speed control with out door reset and the reverse return seem to say that plenty of consideration went into the work.

    it has its support on the wall. there are hangers and unistrut clamps carrying the pipe and trapeese hangers with unistrut clamps ....there are temp gauges for readings at a glance it appears that it is designed that it may be serviced periodically ...what s wrong with that?
  • pennron
    pennron Member Posts: 48
    i truly hope you feel my frustration

    > That e-mail was sent when I said it was sent and

    > not last night at 11:40 pm. I'm not quite sure

    > what you think you are going to get accomplished

    > by being so argumentive, but just to let you know

    > in advance, posts like these don't set well with

    > me. I always have and always will do what I can

    > to help anyone that may be having difficulties

    > with any of our products.

    >

    > Glenn

    > Stanton

    >

    > Manager of Training

    >

    > Burnham

    > Hydronics

    >

    > U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.



    hey glenn:

    Plz don't try and make this seem like I am getting on "your" case. I am not. I don't know you and you are the FIRST contact that I have received from Burnham, so I really dont want to bite the hand that is feeding me. Yes I can see to a point that these emails may not sit well with you. But you know what? 12 weeks of frustration and NO SUPPORT FROM BURNHAM doesn't sit well with me. You sent the email right away, fine, but I received it at 11:40pm. Lets not argue about emails now, lets plz stay on course.

    As another form of confusion with Burnham literature, pg. 58 of the BURNHAM REVOLUTION boiler manual under #9 refers to how you should wire the EC5000 control with this boiler. It refers to fig. 39 in the electrical section. FIG. 39 is on pg. 65 titled CIRCULATOR ZONING WITH EC5000 WIRING SCHEMATIC. However, it has been made quite clear by Mr. Stanton, that this control only works well with steel boilers. FINE. But don't you think the literature should be changed?

    To the people who have responded that Glenn is honest etc. I am sure he is. My argument is with Burnham, not Glenn. Anyone, call up Burnham and tell them your a HO with new Burnham appliances and have a major problem. Tell them, plz just let me speak to tech support with just a simple question! Plz just 1 question, it will only take 2 minutes at most. Go ahead try it...

    I just installed a motion detector and indoor digital timer. 2 different companies and needed to speak to tech support for each device. I called each co. and they said, you bgt our product WE SUPPORT IT! Whats the problem, sir?
    I didn't have to be a contractor, installer or electrical engineer. They realize I'm the guy who's helping to keep them in business!

    Glenn I'll put this to rest now but sorry, its stuck in my craw and I'm venting it out. It seems that most people that answered to this thread are contractors who have an easier time getting thru to Burnham. But as a HO (thats the guy who PAID for the product, remember?), there is ZERO support via telephone or emailing the Burnham website.
    Thank goodness for THE WALL!

    I am truly looking forward to the representative getting in touch with Hanaberry. Glenn I thank YOU whole-heartedly for your help in this matter.
  • pennron
    pennron Member Posts: 48


    > Putting to rest my fear of the unknown, Burnham's

    > tech support has helped me to understand what

    > makes the Revolution an excellent choice for

    > increased efficiency in a residential

    > application. I'm selling and installing more and

    > more of them lately. Here I've used the Taco

    > PC700 outdoor reset control with an EXP relay.

    > I really like this combination.

    >

    > _A

    > HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

    > 290&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

    > Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

    > "Find A Professional"_/A_




    Hi:

    I have a question about the installation pic that is somewhat related to this thread. I am assuming thats a BURNHAM REVOLUTION boiler. It looks just like mine. Now I'm only a HO, but it looks like you have the circulators attached to the RETURN and not the SUPPLY side. Originally thats the way my REVOLUTION was hooked up.

    The install manual explicitely shows in the piping diagram on pg. 49 the circulators attached to the supply side. 2 1/2 yrs ago when I moved in, when Burnham would speak to a HO I spoke to Dave, who told me, because even then I thought there was too much gas usage, "make sure the circulators are on the supply side". The builder made the plumber come back and switch them to the supply...just fyi...
  • JohnNY
    JohnNY Member Posts: 3,226
    The pic may be misleading.

    The circulators are in fact on the supply side.
    The Revolution's supply pipe extends from the back of the boiler.

    Here's another!

    To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
    Contact John "JohnNY" Cataneo, NYC Master Plumber, Lic 1784
    Consulting & Troubleshooting
    Heating in NYC or NJ.
    Classes
  • John_113
    John_113 Member Posts: 1
    Burnham Revolution Boiler

    Check and see if your have the circulator on the feed or the return. The Burnham Revolution has an internal circulator that gives it it's efficiency rating. If the circ was put on the return the way most plumbers install them it will not work correctly. The two circulators (internal to the boiler and return) will fight each other and you will lose. It will not work and will cost you a bundle for no heat. Call Burnham and speak with a tech. If you can get one!
  • RE: Circulators

    As John indicated, his circulators are indeed on the supply main of the boiler. As viewed from the front of the boiler, the left front pipe is the return and the left rear pipe is the supply. Putting the pumps on the return will end up with them prohibiting the internal circulator to do its job of variable speed blending. They need to be on the supply where their discharge head will be reduced through the system piping by the time the flow reaches the return and internal bypass. Just curious....where are your circulators mounted?



    Glenn Stanton

    Manager of Training

    Burnham Hydronics

    U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.
  • pennron
    pennron Member Posts: 48


  • pennron
    pennron Member Posts: 48
    my installation

    hi:

    I stand corrected. Yes your setup is correct. For some reason I thought the front pipe was the supply. My mistake. Here is a pic of my system. Sorry its showing so large, new camera, don't know how to make it smaller yet. Doesn't look pretty like the previous pics posted. Does anyone see any problems, at least with the piping from the pic?

    The blue cables are going to the ARGO ARM842DP controller. The Alliance DWH is set as priority. Any comments most welcome.
  • Smaller Image

    Here is your image shrunk down a bit. Go into edit on that post and remove the big one you posted and paste this one in instead.

    Glenn Stanton

    Manager of Training

    Burnham Hydronics

    U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
    the boiler that you looked at in theother post...

    has some degree of rational built into it for service work. it also shows the pumping away of one zone and the return from that zone coming back last. look at it real close...

    the valves are strategically located for service work.

    maybe it looks the same to you buh really there are quite a few distinct pieces of logic built into it.
  • JohnNY
    JohnNY Member Posts: 3,226
    Contact John "JohnNY" Cataneo, NYC Master Plumber, Lic 1784
    Consulting & Troubleshooting
    Heating in NYC or NJ.
    Classes
  • Ted_9
    Ted_9 Member Posts: 1,718
    hello

    Perron, could you go to the edit and uncheck the box that diplays your pic, its too big and its making the thread hard to read. Thanks.

    To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
  • Smaller Picture

    Ron,

    Go into edit mode for that post and remove the big picture and replace it with this one so it views better.

    Glenn Stanton

    Manager of Training

    Burnham Hydronics

    U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.
  • Rob_35
    Rob_35 Member Posts: 33
    HO opinion

    Is it truly awful? No. Seen worse. Could it be better? Sure. What couldn't?

    Based on other info in the thread, you are probably oversized by about 30%. Is it awful? Not compared to common 2x oversizing. Could it be better? Sure.

    Suggest considering a tekmar 260 or similar control. That would be a starting point.

    A proper condensate handling system would also be a very good thing. Looks like there's been stuff leaking out the drain tube on the left front (the stains on the floor), and a rust stain under the left front of the boiler. If you take the front panel off, I'd venture that perhaps there's a rust stain on the boiler pan under the condensate trap.

    Good luck.
  • pennron
    pennron Member Posts: 48


    5yyy
  • pennron
    pennron Member Posts: 48


    hi:

    Hope I did this correctly. There wasn't any edit button, so I tried to remove the big pic with glenn's smaller one. Thanks...

    I'm now editing the post. I see it didn't work. With glenns attachment I have an EDIT button, but with the post with my large pic, NO EDIT BUTTON.
This discussion has been closed.