Small space \"gonzo\" hydronics (hr)

Gordy_2

Would this work in a gravity setup using a zone valve hooked to a floor sensor T-stat. Slow response I know. Thinking of using this very type of setup for my floor warming. Would be nice to keep it seperate from my ceiling radiant in the shoulder season.

Gordy

hr

I like to color

outside the lines and question authoriy, from time to time. A Hunter Thompson of hydronics, I suppose

Here is a heat source for two bathroom floor warming. Less than 300 square feet total, 2 zones.

A 6 gallon electric tank, 120 v 2000 watts about 6800 BTU/hr output, although I may size down that element to reduce cycling.

Tank, pump, T&P gauge, and a couple zone valves.

Fill to 12 psi cold, and I will see where the pressure ends up at 120 F (no expansion tank assumed or included

I connected it to a 300 foot loop to mimick actual operating conditions. A lazy hand pressure gauge will record high pressure point.

hot rod

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Unknown

i've done a few like that in small basements or workshops (the "9 gallon wonder" I call em)'cept i use 240v w/4500 watt element and a 2.1 gal exp tank. they all work beautifully. i'll post some pics later.

Paul Pollets

The Fix

I just fixed a houseboat (850SF) with QuickTrak using the same setup. With the 6g tank we added a 3/4" thermostatic 3 way and a 15-58 set at low speed. Somehow, it heats the space, even with the 6800 btu's. Wonder if it will keep up when its below design temps?

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Bob Bona_4

just

like my travelin' show display doing 3 floor panels-6 gallon, 15-28 on 3. Some shows, I get about 5 psi in the system static, w/ about 60 feet of 5/16, and the pressure never lifts. Other times I start w/ 12-15, and I'm up to 40@ 150 degrees. I wonder if I need that mini x-tank after all!

All depends on the expo floor composition, I'm thinking. Rubber mats really suck the heat down!

hr

Good to see you, Bob

I ran this most of yesterday and the pressure did hit 60 psi at some point.

But when all was said and done I did throw a small # 5 on the deal. This will go in an uninsulated, ventilated crawl I was trying to limit standby loss. Maybe I will wrap the tank with Barrier or InsulTarp.

hot rod

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Bob Bona_4

sounds good

I guess better safe than sorry re: x tank. Curious to know how long the elements stay on/off on typical heat call. Maybe I'll hook on some sort of amp meter next time around to see if I ever make limit:)

[Deleted User]

We had a local contractor up here...

who has been featured in numerous mech mags that was using NO expansion tank on his closed loop staple up systems. He claimed that the tube expands at approximately the same rate that the water does, and therefore required NO expansion tank to accomodate expanding fluids. Of course, he's the King of Staple up systems...

THe AHJ's convinced him otherwise, but every once in a while, I'll come across one of his expansion tank-less jobs and stand there and shake my head. It's pretty obvious why his systems are so cheap...

ME

Weezbo

Economical Mark. Please*~/:)

i have a "Tool" to jolly up slabs in the winter here...it is brutal looking buh works great. i tend to run 90 degree water through it and it has no expansion tank. i use a bronze body Taco on the system and higher pressure than a typical boiler.

takes a long time for the water to make it to 90 however, in 60 below:)

Unknown

the 9 gallon wonder

heres a couple different designs me and me mates came up with. we've installed 15 or so in small basements/workshops and the like and sold ready made ones to DIY types who like to do their own in-floors.

9 gal.
240v
4.5KW

Timco

Sooo...

Are there floor sensors one can find, or just regulat t-stats?

Tim

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Weezbo

HR...

i know you would be remiss if i lifted a building buh to add information....i have run my er...auxillary up to over 90 psi...how much over though i got to say i wouldnt want it in print ...:)

Brad White_44

I agree, re: the expansion tank Mike-

When I first read "no x-tank" and that the pressure may hit 120", I kind of cringed. Interesting the notion of the tank internal flexibility being the absorber of excess pressure, something had to give grace on the systems that had gone on before.... Still, better safe than sorry.

Boyle' Law does not have an upward limit such as "terminal pressure" analogous to "terminal velocity". The increasing pressure really wants to be "atmospheric" and eventually will not be denied....

The AHJ made a good call.

Plumdog_2

Makes one want to sign on as 57 yr old electrician's apprentice

and forget the whole thing. I've seen these systems too. Featuring little bookshelf brackets anchored to the wall for the heater; and grey polybute bigbox store tubing complete with plastic compression fittings. For the supplemental part; just add some portable electric plug-in space heaters. Save gas 100%.

Mike Reavis_2

This little guy lives on a shelf that I built

under our basement stairs. I went for an expansion tank of sorts. Due to the location of the top tapping on the water heater it also acts as an air eliminator. The system is a work in progress. The house is maintained by a heat pump. I added the radiant to our family room for comfort, and the master bedroom for comfort, and due to the fact that we renovated the room, and the opportunity presented itself to install radiant using the Roth panel system before we finished the floor. Some day we will do the same in the master bath, and the balance of the second floor. At that time I will install a high-eff oil or propane boiler.
I believe the heater is 1500 watts. It does not cycle often. As I mentioned, it is a work in progress, and I really need the ability to cycle it off in the bedroom, as it overheats the room.
Mike

Mike Reavis_2

I would choose a floor sensor in my application

as the balance of the house still is maintained by the heat pump.

Mike

Rodney Summers

Electric?

These are cute, but I am wondering if there is something rong with the resistance wire mat people can install in the mortar bed of their tile floors? Because, the mini boiler adds a-lot of complexity for the same? efficency.

Mark

[Deleted User]

If you ever spring a \"leak\" in an electric wire..

You're S.O.L. Good luck finding the break in the wire, and even better luck doing a long term succesful repair.

Now, if you spring a leak in a water filled pipe, there are LOT's of ways to find it...

Efficiency, on demand the same, if properly controled, within 5 % of each other. If improperly controled, within 15% of each other.

Your call...

ME

Mark_71

Electric resistance wire

Wouldn't (in theory), electric resistance wire be less expensive, and would it really break. Do any of you have experience with the stuff?

Mark

Timco

I just installed one that the customer supplied, and it had a little monitering devise that sounds an alarm if any wires break or short circuit. Went to trim the wires & cut it off and it went nuts...Low wattage. Took a while to warm the floor.

Tim

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JimL

Any favorite control strategies for these boylers? Looking at a 16 x 16 addition with either a climate panel with small elec water heater or total electric mat. Not really crazy with the mat in an area this big for reasons mentioned in previous posts. One thought was climate panel with constant circ and bumping the element on demand to minimize any noise in the climate panel. Haven't seen the drawings yet so can't comment on the load at this point. no gas or oil on site. DHW is a 40 gal electric at present.

Hydronx_2

cute and cuddly

Here is a little 2KW heater I am installing on a one loop bathroom retrofit. The heater is about the size of a propane bottle with the circulator built right onto the bottom of it. I have to wait till Monday to fill it and put the juice to it.

Unknown

now that is compact

i've heard about those, you'll have to post how it is once operational.

i had to drive to a city 3 hours away to install this one (apparently no hot water guys there, they paid for travel so whatever) the H.O. had picked it up at a local supply house, its a Seisco elec. instant water heater. looks like a good one if it works. pretty expensive though, $800 or something like that.

sorry about the fuzz, its a grubby work cell shot

ALH_4

EH2

Looks great, Glenn. You'll really like the Laing heaters. They are perfect for bathroom applications. It's nice to be able to fit a heating system in a stud bay. Let us know how it works. They are also available with Laing's own outdoor reset controls. I just designed a system with two EPR 12's with constant circulation and outdoor reset control connected to Thermofin floors.

-Andrew