system 2000 with ODR?

Pete_24

Can you put a outdoor reset control on a existing EK boiler? Or is this sold only thru EK.
Have someone who spent $9000.00 last year on fuel oil and I told him some savings can be acheived with ODR but I'm unfamiliar with system 2000. The dealer who sold him the unit won't put one in.

Robert O'Brien

The

Digital manager on the EK eliminates the main benefit of ODR,all residual heat in the boiler is dumped into the last zone that called basically eliminating standby loss completely. What is the gallonage consumption? Heat loss? Boiler sized and installed correctly? Assuming $2.50/gal, $9000 = 3600 gals. That's an awful lot of oil You'd have over 2000 hours of runtime on a EK2 at max firing rate.

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chapchap70_2

It can be done but the System 2000 purges the heat out of the boiler after every cycle so the btus go into the last zone that called. I believe that an outdoor reset lowers the boiler water temperature if the outside temperature is warm. There would be little benefit in putting an ODR with a System 2000.

$9000 with last years warm winter? How big is this guys house?

Long Beach Ed

System 2000 Reset Control

Energy Kinetics System 2000 does not reset water temperature based on the outside air. Instead, they post-purge all the heat into the living space from the boiler after the zone is satisfied.

The boiler also has a bypass with a zone valve that permits internal circulation through the boiler until the water reaches 140 degrees. Since the boiler only holds 2-1/2 gallons of water, this only takes about 90 seconds. Only when that has been satisfied does the zone open. This reduces any condensation on the steel heat exchanger wich is actually a 10-foot long steel coil.

Basically, that is just about all the System 2000 controller does. Otherwise it serves as switching relays for the zones, savings the expense and wiring of zone relays. The limit sensors are standard White-Rogers/Honeywell types.

Energy Kenetics tech folks say that no savings would be accomplished by varying the water temperature. I suppose the extremely low mass of the boiler along with the huge surface area of the heat exchanger would result in extreme short-cycling if reset was used.

How did this guy spend $9000 in fuel? Are you sure the controls are functioning properly? Maybe the radiators are grossly mis-sized? Or is the place the size of a Russian War Memorial?

Look over the particulars. I'm sure the E-K people will answer any questions you may have. The boiler controls are actually very simple to troubleshoot once you know what they are supposed to do.

Long Beach Ed

Unknown

$9000 eh? Is there an underground oil tank leak or somehting?

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Pete_24

Thanks everyone,

Like I said before, I'm not familiar with the EK system, but the replys given
were pretty much the same the installer gave the home owner.
Too bad.
It's a converted barn approx 12,000 ft. 35' ceilings in great room. Retrofitted and insulated. 10 zones of baseboard and 1 zone radiant some zones have perimeter baseboard, way too long leaving end of loop cool. Baseboard also installed by oil company who, installed system 2000. Three 330 gals tanks twined in.
At what his fuel costs are, he's looking into Geo as primary source , into buffer tank , then have boiler bring up remaining temp to 180*

Long Beach Ed

Huh???

Wait a minute...

12,000 Square feet with a 35-foot high ceiling??? This place is bigger than the Megaplex Movie theatre. Bigger than Radio City Music Hall as a matter of fact.

And the place is piped wrong also?

The guy may be getting away easy with $9000.

Did anyone do a real heat loss calculation on this barn and see what it's supposed to cost to heat?

Long Beach Ed

Pete_24

Nope

If I choose to do the job whatever action that may be, I would do a real
heat loss. May take me all day to measure everything. Right now I'm leaning towards passing this one up.
Did I mention only two people live in the place, oh and the dog.
I'm sure he can afford the $9000, but that's not my place, I was ask to
cut down that number some how, even if it means putting in a $60,000 geo system, but with all the baseboard, the system 2000 must stay.

chapchap70_2

It seems from what little info you gave that the oil company tried to do the right thing.

You can raise the aquastat, put aluminum foil on the shorter baseboard zones and the beginning of the longer ones and be done. With the right phrasiology of a contract, you may be able to get away with 30 grand.

Mellow_2

pete

could you look into a more radiant way of heating? If they do not use the space 35' up maybe you wouldn't have to heat it or just heat it to 60. Dan talked about a church in one of his books....... it was heated with radiant floor heat and had high ceilings. The wethead at the church only heated to 70 degrees 10 feet up. at the roof it was 30 or 40 degrees. If the radiant floor is not posible maybe radiant panels could help. how about constant circ on a secondary loop..... Just use the boiler to raise the secondary loop.... You could have OD reset on the secondary loop keeping the water much cooler(130 deg) and closer to the floor. The BB might work better this way but it is all convection style heat so the bb heats the air and the air takes the heat to the ceiling 35'up. good luck

tim smith

Baseboard???

Why would they put baseboard (copper, if I am guessing right, in a place like that). Maybe Runtal panels or something like that to get a little better radiant effect would be nice and much better aesthetics.

Pete_24

3 levels

There is two lofts, one for an office, one for bedroom above that, all open to main area below, totaling 35' or so. all levels need to be heated , so just radiant alone on the main level would not work.
Does any one think the Geo is a good option, tied into the systen 2000. Not sure how to control tank with second stage being the boiler.
I agree baseboard was not a good stratedgy.

Mellow_2

pete

geo is great if that is what they want.... I have found that I have to give the people what they want to make them happy........That being sayed..... I think geo runs mostly at low water temps (100-140) If you ran it hotter would it lose it's eff. and use as much energy as the system 2000????? If you want to run the low temps with geo why not do the low temps with the system 2000 (but protect the boiler). What will the geo hook to? the same bb system? If useing the same BB why would it heat more EFF?? Dose this sound right or am I rambling ..............:)

chapchap70_2

Pete,

Take this for what it is worth since I know next to nothing about geothermal. Suppose geothermal costs nothing to operate. Isn't the payback of installing the system close to 7 years?

If the baseboard runs are long, how are low water temperatures going to heat the space well? If zones are added to make them shorter, won't this add to the installation costs and payback time?

As Long Beach Ed said, since the boiler purges the heat out of the boiler after the last zone is satisfied, lowering the aquastat or boiler water temperature will not save fuel.

I suppose you can install geothermal with the System 2000 as a backup and make it operate only if the boiler water goes below say 110 degrees. Since there is no combustion flue gasses, condensation should not be a problem. This may be a disservice to the customer since the payback of a system like this could be 50 years. Ask the customer if he will pay you to do a proper heat loss calculation since it may save him unnecessary expense and aggravation.

Joe Brix

Wha's the heat loss of the building

And what EK do they got in there? Could the problem be an undersized boiler?

Ron Schroeder

Re-pipe the overly long baseboard zones so they are not cold on the end. That might help balance the temperature allowing a slight savings.

As far as geothermal goes, it depends on the local cost of electricity and the COP of the heat pump. If you calculate the BTU/$ for the heat pump and the BTU/$ for oil (use 85%-87% efficiency for the 2000), and the heat pump has higher BTU/$ then you will save money.