Where's my F&T?

JoeV_2

I am still in the dreaming stages of reinstalling a steam boiler... I posted a few photos of componants a long time ago and Steamhead said I have a Trane Vapor system.

I'm looking at pictures of the old boiler (long removed but the mains, returns and radiators are still here)and her near piping but I don't see an F&T trap described in laosh. It looks like the condensate returns dropped below the water line and connected to the boiler side of the Hartford Loop. Do I understand this correctly? I wish I had taken more pictures.

Brad White_145

May not have ever been one!

Could be the use of water seals as was done before traps were invented. Heck, globe valves were once used before traps. Running a steam plant must have been a full time job!

The Steam Brigade will shed far more light on this than I. Mind you, I like a good F&T as much as the next guy.

Unknown

JoeV.............

Brad`s right, there isn`t one. If Steamhead said its a Trane Vapor System, they used a different method to get rid of the air so it could go into a slight vacuum. The condensate returned to the boiler below the waterline, by gravity alone. BTW- what pg. are you reading in LAOSH? as I can see no mention of an F&T trap in mine, for this type of system. PS- I too, wish you had taken more pics.

Brad White_9

Probably never was one


Those old Trane systems used to have Direct Return Traps. An amazing work of engineering if you ask me.

Pages 235 thru 237 of TLAOSH give you a good description of how they worked.

Mark H

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Unknown

OK Mark.............

your talking a "Boiler Return Trap", that`s maybe what he meant. Just a mix-up on terminology there.

Christian Egli_2

The direct return trap... on stilts

That's what Trane seems to have called it's alternating return trap, it's the float mechanism that is nothing more than a pumpless condensate pump. They were needed when the altitude difference between boiler water line and return piping was too small for the (A) B dimensions under an out of control raging coal fire.

It seems JoeV's boiler is on stilts and down a pit, thus clearing comfortable enough altitude clearance to dispense with the boiler return trap. A modern fire controlled with a vaporstat also makes the return trap redundant; nothing to worry about. And so, my opinion adds nothing to the common consensus so far except words...

JoeV, you have a nice home.

Make sure you have air vents at both the main end and return end. In lieu of air vents, it's possible to have F&T traps at the main ends before pouring everything into the returns, possible also are the crossover traps, but neither did seem common in Trane systems.

JoeV_2

My problem is, I can't find a similar system in LAOSH-at least not yet. Nothing with check valves or anything like that.
I have to dig around to see if I kept some of the near piping but I have my doubts.

More description: Two steam takeoffs makes two loops around this small house and return to the boiler, tie in together just prior to the h-loop. Both returns have a vent up in the joist cavity. Each loop has a paralell condensate return line that returned to the boiler and tied together near the front of the boiler before dropping below the water line; it also had a vent...is that it? omething seems to be missing.

JoeV_2

My problem is, I can't find a similar system in LAOSH-at least not yet. Nothing with check valves or anything like that.
I have to dig around to see if I kept some of the near piping but I have my doubts.

More description: Two steam takeoffs makes two loops around this small house and return to the boiler, tie in together just prior to the h-loop. Both returns have a vent up in the joist cavity. Each loop has a paralell condensate return line that returned to the boiler and tied together near the front of the boiler before dropping below the water line; it also had a vent...is that it? omething seems to be missing.

Some more images: 097 is the vent for the condensate return lines. 64 is the old girl being waked.

JoeV_2

Thanks Christian. That pit is my partial basement but my wife would agree with you.

No stilts, no float mechanism, and plenty of A dimenision. I'll post more tmorrow. Thanks for yur help and have a good night!

Joe

Christian Egli_2

Got lost in the library again

Thanks to this website's most excellent library, here is more help.

The Trane book

http://www.heatinghelp.com/pdfs/26.pdf.

What sort of traps have you got on your radiators?

Steamhead (in transit)

Joe, that's exactly what you'd find

on a later-version Trane Vapor system. A vent on each steam main and one on the dry returns, and that's it. If there was enough "B" dimension, it may not have ever had a Return Trap. These systems are pretty common around Baltimore, and none of the ones I've seen have F&T traps at all (but some of the Webster systems do!). Does yours use the B1 radiator traps?

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Joe V

Definately not B-1 traps as illustrated in the Trane book.

They were Milvaco traps that look like this (and have been replaced with a comparable after market trap):

Joe V

Definately not B-1 traps as illustrated in the Trane book.

They were Milvaco traps that look like this (and have been replaced with a comparable after market trap).

The radiators are 23" Corto's of varying widths.

I really apprecate the interest everyone has expressed in helping me. I've been studying and asking questions about this one system for two years. I don't know why I havn't ran out of questions yet!

Unknown

Joe.............

You day the system had "Milvaco" traps on the rads? I got this from Dan`s library, see if this sheds a little light onto your system.

Unknown

Joe V.................

You say it had "Milvaco" traps on the rads? I got this from Dan`s library, see if this sheds some light on your type of system. You may not have had the "return-trap" and all the check-valves, if you have the vertical-height to support the returning condensate. PS- Also note, that`s quite a price-list too!

Joe V

that's a great book and I havn't seen it before. But, my system doesn't have the return trap or swing check valves ilustrated. Every photo I've seen has one or the other or both.

Unknown

That`s right Joe,,,,,,,,,,,,,

If your system is like this, the "Dead-Men" likely figured they didn`t need them so he didn`t put them-on. He must have had the height above the waterline. Remember, this is for very low-pressure.

Joe V

Clearly, I need to read some more in this area.

I do not understand the purpose of the check valves (i thought I did). Or, for that matter the need for a return trap when it is easier to drop below the water line.

Unknown

The check valve...............

kept the boilers water from "pushing-back" against the incoming condensate if the fire "went-nuts", but some guy`s didn`t use-them. The "return-trap" assisted the returning condensate with a "push" to get back into the boiler if there was not enough "vertical-stacking-height" available. Check-valves on this separated the two pressures for it to operate.(check Christian`s post). Dropping below the waterline (on gravity returns), prevents live steam from trying to enter the boilers return.

Joe V

I think the light bulb came on

with this article:

http://www.heatinghelp.com/steam_twopipewaterhammeratmiddle.cfm

We had a nominal 37in B dimension with the old boiler. Unfortunately, we also had failed main vents, failed traps, missing traps, an operating pressure of 3psi and extremely clogged returns. This old system was part of the living dead long before we showed up. Never had any attention from anyone. So when we get a new boiler, the B dimension will be more like 44inches and the operating pressure will be 8oz range, new traps,vents and insulation the water should return to the boiler easily, right?

Unknown

Now your getting-it Joe............

If this is your "breed" of system, and your going to be running-it at 1/2 lb.(8 oz.) max. pressure, and you have 44in. of vertical "stacking-height", you should be fine! Just remember to treat the system as a "whole", and do the things you said! "Get-at-er", it`s getting cold!

Joe V

Thanks Dave. Actually, I'm in no real rush. I'm walking around in short sleeves still. 70 deg. here in N.C.

If all goes well, work will start mid January.

Unknown

Your Lucky Joe,,,,,,,,,,,,

I`m up-here in Ontario, Canada! LOL!
Glad we could help! Take-Care!

Joe V

Thanks again &

Take care yourself and stay warm!

Steamhead (in transit)

That

sure looks like a Trane! But there it is- Milvaco. Maybe there was some connection....nawwwww..... couldn't be......

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Brad White_9

Didn't notice the pit


Sorry! Only glanced at the pics.

Steamhead nails it as usual.

Mark H

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Joe V

What do you mean?