I don't get it

Mark_46

Munchkin 80M.

Mark_46

Rationale

Can anybody help me understand the rationale in the attached letter I received? I don't get it.

Uni R_2

Rationale

What boiler do you have?

Floyd

Sounds to me like.....

uuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, we don't really know how to do that, so hopefully this will scare you off so that we don't have to figure it out.

Floyd

Uni R_2

Vision

Why not get a contractor who is Vision certified to install Munchkin's integrated controller (which does prioritize)?

http://www.htproducts.com/howtobuy/index.html

Mark_46

Floyd

I think that is more or less the case. Just wanted to see if I was interpreting correctly by cross checking with others who are knowledgeable.

Mark_46

Funny thing happend on the way to the forum

Funny you mention that. Before the job began, I asked if the Vision 1 control should be used. I was told no, they had troubles with the ones they installed in the past, its not worth it. I guess I should have known right then and there they are working with equipment they don't understand.

D107

One installer told me he prefers not to use DHW priority

because he'd seen cases where the HOs went away for a few weeks during the winter and the boiler got locked on the priority and did't heat the space.

HO here

David

Mark_46

Floyd

I should mention that this was accompanied by an estimate to make the change using 2 relays and a 1900 box, whatever that is. I think a Vision control would be better.

Mark_46

David

Wow, good point. But I guess a failure as in the case you describe is the exception rather than the norm. Agree? Otherwise there are only benefits to be had via better control.

D107

if an installer was hit with liability for something like that

then I'm sure they never forget it. But there's so many ways for leaks to occur, for boilers to malfunction. If you go away for a few weeks, people should have a neighbor check the house out a few times. There are sensors that can phone in temperature drops or water leaks on floors.

Bottom line, if people are away, they can turn off DHW priority for that time.

David

Patchogue Phil_29

Override priority

Aren't there controllers that override the DHW priority if it has been on too long? They will then run the zones for awhile to heat the building.

Also, some controllers "exercise" the circulators every few days if they've not been running, to keep them from getting stuck.

Constantin

DHW off setting?

Some boilers also allow you to turn off DHW production whilst on a "vacation" setting that keeps the house at a much lower temperature.

Many controls also limit priority demand on a timed basis. Some even allow you to set the time limit.

It's all in the controls, and there are many choices to select from. I presume that the Vision 1 controller would offer a great deal of flexibility. IMO, it's time to give Chuck Shaw a call at the factory to clarify what the issues are.

Mitch_4

hhmmm

what is a tap got left on? or the indirect springs a leak? or the relief does't reseat...

might not be as unusual as you think...

Mitch_4

Argo uses timed priority

Uni R_2

Override priority

The Vision 1 will do this. I think the setting is 0 - 60 minutes. I couldn't imagine a Munchie without the Vision since it also includes outdoor reset.

tom_49

Mark,
If they didnt want to use the Vis-1 odds are that its not piped correctly according to HTP specs. There install instructions are very clear. You cant just install the vis-1 by just adding a priority control. The piping needs to be done properly .

I just ran into this yesterday. The people have a 140m, no pri/sec piping, no vision 1, just 1 pump and 2 zone valves. Brand new condo. They werent very happy when I told them in order to put the v-1 in we had to redo the piping.

Get a certified Vision 1 installer, we have lots of them out there, the only problem we have encountered is a bad outdoor temp. sensor.

Good luck, Tom

Mark_46

Tom

This is exactly my concern. I think I have much to gain by adding the Vision control. But as you describe, I have on circ and three valves. (2 heat, 1 DHW). It so happens that I am not happy with the near boiler piping either. I can see where this is heading already.

Do you know who is a Vision 1 installer?

D107

Where are you located? Clammy is a Vision 1 Installer

and a few other wallies who post photos of munchkin installs. The munchkin website has a list of certified installers. I can only say that most of them are probably very good. But I did encounter some that though they went through the training, did not rise to the standard of the wallies, so you'll still have to get references and check them out.

Clammy is as good as they come. He's northern Jersey.

David

Uni R_2

Vision 1 Cerified Contractors

http://www.htproducts.com/howtobuy/index.html

That link I provided allows you to search for one. It is on the lower portion of the page.

Mark_46

Yes

Thanks David.

To my recollection, I thought Clammy was a V1 installer, wasnt sure. I have already tried to contact him yesterday. I am waiting for his reply. One of my main questiosn to him was where he is located. You say Nor NJ. Thats great, cause thats where I am! Thanks again.

Floyd

A 1900 box....

is just a 4" x 4" electrical box to mount the relays in.
As many have said... get the V 1 control. Sounds like you could be getting so much more out of your new machine. Sad part is that there are many new boiler machines out there that are not coming even close to reaching the full potential of savings that could be had from them.
Wish you could get up pics., would love to see how that thing is piped up.

Floyd

Mark_46

Hi Floyd

Are you kidding me? A 1900 box is just a junction box? Here I was thinking it may be some sort of simple control.

Yes, I definitely will persue a V1. I agree, I could be wringing more efficiency out of this system. I should have gone with my gut instinct from the beginning and insisted it be part of the original install.

I'd be more than happy to post some pics. I posted some pics of the basic near-boiler piping back in May. Although those pics showed the system incomplete. But I think the errors were already apparent. I will try to search for it and post the link to that thread in this thread. If I cant find it, I'll post some new ones.

Dave_4

Mark C

Is this a single family home? If so, how many people live there and with how many bathrooms, and what size is the storage tank for domestic hot water.

It sounds to me, (like the other posters mentioned) the installers limited knowledge about V-1 (I may be included). However, if this was a single family home with one (possibly 1&1/2 baths) and three occupants, I personally don't see the need for priority. There's nothing wrong with having it mind you, I just don't see the need for it unless you had more than three occupants or a multifamily house.


Robert O'Connor

Mark_46

Hi Robert

Interesting how you say DHW may not be needed.

To your questions:

Single family home

2 Adults, 1 16 month old, 1 english bulldog )

2 full bathrooms

30 gallon SSU

Dave_4

Mark C

"Interesting how you say DHW may not be needed."

I do think DHW is needed, I just don't think you always "need" priority. I've installed alot of priority controls but they have to pass the sniff test for me to recommend them. With such a small load and not enough occupants to warrent such an expense, but hey, thats just me. I believe in the "Kiss" method, don't try and over engineer something that already works.


I also don't have it in my own house. That should tell ya' something. By the time you get out of my shower, dry yourself off, bush your teeth......whatever, my indirect has already recovered apox time 8-12 minutes (depending on the outside temp and that of the incomming water). With priority, can you get that number(time) below that?



Robert O'Connor/NJ

Mark_46

GENTS HERE'S THE FIRST SET OF PICS

Mark_46

HERES THE SECOND SET OF PICS

Steve Ebels_3

I'd like to see

Pictures of the piping on the left side of the boiler where the manifold connections are. Hard to tell from the pics you have here but it looks as though you don't have a primary secondary piping arrangement going on there. Is there a second circ somewhere for the DHW tank? In the pic "system first airhandler" what is the flow direction, to the right or to the left.

Steve Ebels_3

Piping diagrams

Diagrams start on page 26.

http://www.htproducts.com/literature/lp-61.pdf

Floyd

I'm speechless.....

I will wait to say what I think... for fear of regretting what I will say!!! Ok, this is an obvious example of someone that hasn't a clue how to pipe up a Mod/con boiler, but made a feeble attempt at it anyway...... I'll make a list after I calm down.

Floyd

Dave_4

Mark C

"Priority", seems to be a good word to use here but unfortunatly it didn't apply to your piping layout.

I'd go back to the installation instructions,............... and then open them. Look up, Steve Ebels has posted them for you.

Ya got some piping issues Mark, but they can be fixed. If you were able to do all of this yourself, then you are certainly capable of fixing it the "right way".

Good Luck!


Robert O'Connor/NJ

ps: who sold you the equipment?

Ted_9

Bad but fixable

I feel bad for you Mark because I know this wasnt a cheap install. This kind of stuff makes everyone in the trades look bad.

I recommend the HTP contractor search and or the "
Find a Pro" here on heatinghelp.com, because your system needs some help.


To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Mark_46

Hi Steve, thanks for the feedback

To the extent I understand Pri/Sec, you're correct it is not. Pri/sec at minimum uses a primary loop circulator, closely spaced tees connecterd into the secondary loop and a circulator for each zone...or one secondary loop circulator with zone valves, right?

To answer your question, this arrangement only has one circulator and uses zone valves from there. Whats been bothering me for some time (among other things) is I cant control flow or temperature for each zone. It is all dictated by the one circ and the pressure drops along the way.

To answer your other question, the flow goes up from the boiler, then from left to right. And yes before you say it, I know, the circulator is pumping into the expansion tank. And it does not have the minimum 18" of pipe before the scoop, among the other problems.

Mark_46

Hi Robert

If I understand your post, youre under the impression I installed this. LOL. Oh no, its far more entertaining than that. What you see was done by a so called 'professional plumber'. And as I watched it go together I was freaking out more and more by the minute because I was pretty sure in my gut it wasnt right.

I then questioned it. I was told to "let him finish", "if it doesnt work we'll correct it", and that "there are perhaps 50 different ways to arrange near boiler piping". I was fuming to say the least but had little leverage because 1) the job was rolling along at a high pace 2) it may in fact 'work' 3) I was reduced to, in their eyes, as just the homeowner who didnt know anything and 4) I had no way of saying stop work, I'm bringing in my own guy because I had nobody available. That is...the right guy, in my area, who knows what theyre doing. But now I do and he will be coming by in the near future to assess the 'damage'.

To your question, nobody sold me the equipment directly becasue I didnt install it, LOL. The eqipment was part of the total contract.

Mark_46

Hi Ted

You're correct this wasnt cheap, but the result is.

Ken_40

We're in your 'hood as well.

Exit 135 GSP.

(732) 388-1794

S Ebels

Mark, I gotta ask

Is there any indication or evidence that the manual for the boiler was ever opened up or consulted. Is it out of the bag it came in?

Mark_46

Yes, but

it was opened by me, LOL. They never touched it as far as I know. Would you expect someone who does work like this to look at the manual? And whats worse, he said he had installed several Munchkins before! So somewhere there are several other installs as ****-backwards as this one.

Bottom line Steve, I am now stuck holding an expensive bag. And I will probably land up paying AGAIN to correct it.

Afterall, "it works". How do you reason with an outfit that says that? What do you say and on what grounds? It should be pri/sec because?

Whats worse is the item that reopened this whole can of worms is that I discovered DHW was not made priority as I understood it would be. This discussion thread then migrated towards the fact that you really cant add Vision 1 control without being piped properly. I feel Im back to square one.

Im open to any ideas.

Floyd

What about warranty????

If your boiler isn't piped to the manufacturers specs. and say the heat exchanger burns up prematurely....now who's holding the bag??? I would get in writing that the intaller will warranty his work including boiler replacement with labor, if it would fail in X amount of years....
Don't know for sure, but my feeling is that if your boilers fails in the near future that the warranty would be null and void because of failure to follow the piping diagrams laid out by the manufacturer.
You know what separates the good installer from the bad???? The good installer actually READS the installation manual!!!! They change so often, that it is mandatory to get each one out and go through it for every install... just when you thought ya knew all the questions... they change all the answers......

Floyd

Mark_46

Everybody

Thanks for all the input.