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Losing bids!
S Ebels
Member Posts: 2,322
Is named MOAB. A: because it's out in the wilderness and
B: Because it's the acronym for Mother Of All Blinds
Pictures when I get it done and in place.
Anyone have a 20" wide compact model kitchen range for sale? I'm looking for something I can bake breakfast and dinner in while I'm out there............along with the occasional pie.
B: Because it's the acronym for Mother Of All Blinds
Pictures when I get it done and in place.
Anyone have a 20" wide compact model kitchen range for sale? I'm looking for something I can bake breakfast and dinner in while I'm out there............along with the occasional pie.
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Comments
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Why do home owners walk into your office and tell you they want the best,then turn around and buy the cheapest heating system on the market from someone un-qualified?0 -
Because
someone didn't show them the value.Retired and loving it.0 -
True Dan.. Very true. Perhaps I need to read through "Just Add H2O again!
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because the economy isnt as great as they say it is. I see money being very tight around here anyway0 -
Often because they also want the "best" in other places as well and when they realize there's no way they can afford, they cut from the mechanicals before using Formica instead of granite...0 -
Scarey Mike !! but sooooTRUE
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Plus these facts
Some people just don't want to buy what we're selling. Period.
Some see the long term value but simply don't have the dough. For those folks I'll do my level best to find equipment that fits their budget but still allows me to design and install their system the way it should be.
Heating equipment has very little "bling" and no matter how much "value" is in your design and workmanship, they can't show it off. Those I leave to get what they so richly deserve.0 -
Because....
They can show the "jewelry" in the living spaces and the driveway much easier than the things that actually pay for themselves!
My take is to show them the car that they drove off the lot, and lost almost as much as a new heating system would cost...could PAY FOR ITSELF in fuel savings alone, and make their perceived "bottom line" a better buy.
Some understand....but the neighbors can't SEE THAT!!!(again PERCEPTION!) My advice is for them to just "snicker and KNOW that they're saving money". If they don't understand that...See the post about not bidding on a job. I laugh....Chris0 -
I call it "HGTV disease".
Mainly flash and very little substance.
I've designed, plumbed and constructed MANY bathrooms and quite a number of kitchens in my days but have only done one truly fancy bath--for me. Will NEVER do one again. The cost of PROPER mechanicals, permanent substrates and good service access is extreme--even when DIY.
BTW, bath/kitchen design and construction is really my favorite as it involves so many different things and I especially enjoy working with smaller spaces and making them "work" like they're much larger.
I recently bought a decent though but-ugly house in a decent neighborhood for less than the fair cost of that bathroom. Even after full interior/exterior renovation it won't sell for much more than that bath...
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Sometimes...
...I think that to "us" quality counts because of our reputation, and we won't give it up for a few bucks. We've lost many apartment house boiler replacements [ my thing] to shoddy workmanship by the low bidder that "just wants to keep his men busy". You guys have NO IDEA how that boils my Italian blood. I don't mind loosing a bid to a ligitimate shop, but those wh---- don't belong in the business. They ruin the impression of the trade by the public. If I can't take home a loaf of bread, I won't take home a half. And by the way, what's wrong with wanting to work less and making more? Huh? I won't compromise my work ethics either. My shop is in business to make money the old fashion way. That's the way I feel, 'cause that's the way I was taught by one of the best Dead Men there was, MY Dad. bwdik?ijap0 -
Bling
It is hard to bling invisible comfort to the neighbors, although When they enter my basement bar in the winter, the women do remark how the basement floor is not cold. This sparks interest, and they are the ones to impress. "I want one of those". :-)
Gordy0 -
Oh wow
I was talking to a customer yesterday and asked her how many people she showed her furnace to as opposed to the people that saw her new, custom designed kitchen with a granite countertop.
She looked at me like I was crazy until she realized what I was really saying. I told her then that her new system would actually save her money by lowering the utility bills. She understood then.0 -
I think
I think Robert Bean said something to the effect that you should always sell to the lady of the house and I've found that to be true since way back in the hardware store days 20-25 years ago. About the only thing the guy had a say in was buying nails or nuts and bolts. If it went in the house it was HER ball game.0 -
Catch 22
The tangeble sp? part of radiant is the warm floors claim. But as the homes envelope becomes more energy efficient the comfort becomes more invisible...neutral if you will...until you see the utility bills. Not an exciting thing to brag about to the neighbor for the tangeble kinda guy. But it should be.
Gordy0 -
this comes up a lot
and is a pain to deal with. Over the years I've found that a methodical approach to the problem has paid the best dividends for me. Let me say at the outside that there are some people who are solely governed by price, always have been, always will be, can't change them, don't want to try.
For the rest there is hope. Remember those cheap guys we come across daily, well this is not the first generation of HVAC hacks that has come down the pike, and in many cases we are changing equipment badly installed by these guys predecessors. So here is my methodical approach. I look for the problems that I can solve and provide a couple of solutions for the HO. You know what I'm talking about, piping , radiator,oversizing, poor heat distribution and like issues. In my experience the HO is getting quotes for the replacement, and some will be from the current crop of hacks, who want to continue the hack tradition. Their method is not going to change and therein lies my opportunity to differentiate myself from the hack gang. Most homes I go to have issues and if I can demonstrate to the HO that I have the best solution, and they see the benefit of doing it the right way then I probably will get the job. If possible offer a couple of solutions with differing price points to further increase the chances of getting the work. I have found that most people want to improve on any current problems that may have if the can see there is a direct and measurable benrfit to them. Also as my prices are typically the highest they see I offer financing. BTW, we don't hold the monopoly on the hack culture, they are all pervasive. Some one once said "fortune favours the brave", that's a pretty good line to go on.
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HGTV Disease
I like that, Mike. Here Goes The Value.....0 -
I'm in Dans camp on this one
WE have to Show them the value.
My mother-in-law ( hard woman to please ) sat at my kitchen table and told me " If I had to build another house and put heat in it .. " ( I figure Here We Go ), " I'd put in what you have, I've never been so comfortable in a house ". You could have knocked me over.
SHOW them how comfortable they can be.
WE have to tell them what we do, WE have to let the know that fuel prices are only going up ( ya I know, little blip right now ).
WE have to let them know how a well designed system will be easly repaired and serviced and save them money in the future.
Sell the sizzle.
I honestly can say I have NEVER had a busier Fall. We have Four boilers ready to be fired up, Six sitting in our shop and five estimates to do, not counting the estimates I hav'nt heard from yet ( good luck to them for waiting ).
My Dentist asked me why we were so busy ..... I smiled and said " Because we're good ! "
Sell the sizzle .... damn right.
Scott
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Right on Scott
This Spring I made the jump from "hvac guy," to Hydronics expert. No more banging sheet metal, I'll sub that out if necessary. I am only doing what I love. Hydronics, Radiant floors and boilers. I can't catch up with all the work coming my way. Right now I am in my 3rd week at a project where the people are so pleasantly backwards from most other people, I will be sad to leave. Their house is in shambles, partly from age, partly because of their 3 sons.
They have added a 2 story additon out back. They are spending big bucks to upgrade their existing heating system and add radiant floors to the new addition, BEFORE they upgrade the rest of the house. (which really needs it.) They are going radiator shopping this weekend for a special showpiece radiator for the living room at a old time shop in Baltimore that Steamhead recommended to me. They are so excited about their new heating system I wish I could adopt them. I'll be posting pictures someday. WW
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Dan's right................................
Josh, I just emailed Dan a list last week that I sent to three HOs whose jobs we were bidding on. It was my own personalized version of the "21 (?) reasons why you should hire us....." (To paraphrase)list. Both of them told us that we were approx. $4000.00 higher than the "other" bids "from Legit, long-established companies" two actally scolded us to "go back and sharpen your pencil." I responded with the list which gave them ALL the reasons why they should hire us AND what the others weren't giving them. As Al Levi explained once: "You want to set the standard of the bid....you want let the HO to know that they are NOT getting the proper job because THIS is what it costs to do it right. If they go with the lower bids, they will be taking their chances and have only themselves to blame. Moreover, if the other contractor gets the job, the HO will drive him NUTS with questions and comments: "aren't you using any air eliminator?....shouldn't you have a valve there?" The contractor AND the HO will learn a hard lesson and hopefully make our trade a better place by raising the bar. BTW, we got 1 out of the 3....and that is fine. You can't and don't want to get EVERY job you bid on....if you do, you are not charging enough. If you would like, I would be glad to email you the lists. Mad Dog
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Yes Scott..........................................
And some people NO MATTER how well you explain it just don't care that much and you are never going to convince...and that's fine. I also say that EVERYONE wants a "great" job. but not everyone is willing to pay for it. One of our new mottoes: "
"If you expect excellence.......AND you are willing to pay for it." It makes it very clear what we are about...some have called it arrogant....but it weeds out the lookie loos and ATTRACTS the good customers like Fresh Guiness on Tap to Irishmen. Its working well for us. Mad Dog
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So what you're saying Scott is
we should send our potential customers to your house.
Excellent!
Mr. and Mrs. Hornfeck will arrive tomorrow morning at 7:00am. They have 10 children.
Try to do something original for breakfast.
Mark H
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I got a waffle iron for Fathers Day
Fresh maple syrup with smoked bacon.. "ORDER UP".
Matt, that was the one part I DID'NT add to the post. I agree 100%. Some People just don't get it, and those are the customers for your compitition. Let them deal with the looky-loos.
Scott
PS: Mark ... fresh squeezed orange juice for Mrs Hornbeck. Just don't be supprised if she goes with Milne P+H for the job. Once I get em their mine
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I Agree
Modern Plumbing and Heating companies are trying to "lower the bar" so that help can be trained in a 2 week seminar and replaced on a regular basis. Just like Wal Mart and every other business model of the New World.0 -
Charging for estimates
You'll find that if you charge for estimates, you'll greatly reduce the "tire kickers". Our closing rate is 90% for estimates and proposals that have a fee attached, 10% for "free estimates". We rebate the charge if we get the job. Who has time to subsidize the shoppers? A professional gets paid for his services.
I thought that "local" projects (within a 30 block radiaus of our shop) were deserving of a "free estimate", and would be easy to close, since we were so close to the project. Same deal...those who paid for a site visit and proposal, usually bought the system. Those who didn't pay, got great advice, a recipe for the system, and didn't buy.
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Oh Stop!
We all know how you operate. You pre-qualify all your potential customers with one question:
"Do you work for Boeing making 6-figures a year; or don't you"?
If I were where you are, that would be my only criteria too! (:-o)
Happy New Year lad.0 -
Talk to the majority, but not all homeowners, and many; look at the mechanicals and structurals as being frivolous! But they wont bat an eye at paying $500.00 for a gold faucet to go along with the granite counters! Theyre into it that far, theyll say! Hey, I even get that at home from my own wife! We have a 20s era house that I have been working on in my spare time. Her to girlfriends, my new boiler and piping improvements is my toy in the basement that wasted a large corner! The time and money for that could have been better spent putting in new kitchen cabinets, or re-doing the hardwood floors according to her (which, by the way will eventually be done with radiant heat!) But, when I tell her about my customers that dont want to have the Cadillac system that I try to educate them on, she doesnt understand why they wont listen to me! Dont they realize, shell say!0 -
so you''re saying...
...one shouldn't pre-qualify prospects?
BTW, rarely are Boeing employees our clients, especially since they moved the corporate headquarters to Chicago with 400 executives. Most of our customers (60%) work in software technologies.
I doubt I could come up with a one question criteria tool...
Good Yuntov!
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I'll have...
bagels and lox...a little whitefish would be nice, too.
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\"HGTV disease\".
You have a great point. All of those shows gloss over the mechanicals cause it aint sexy enough. There is no showing how a better install and system can actually be less expensive to have.
Another thing, on the shows like "House Flippin Made Easy", they always have a contractor that does the work for dirt cheap or they knock the price down significantly saying "oh I've got a tight budget on this one" (meaning, hey I want to make $130K profit not only $80K).
People see that and figure every contractor can be haggled down significantly.0 -
Maybe
a schmear of cream cheese for you ?
Scott
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Have been doing a bit of "house flipping" myself for a couple years. Definitely not easy. Hire out some things, do others myself. Am very happy with $20K profit (not counting my labor).
Haven't found one yet with hydronic heat, but have realtor watching. In my area those which hydronic heat are either huge, chopped into apartments and in TERRIBLE shape; huge and in wonderful shape; or modest, well maintained and already priced as high as the neighborhood will bear. I prefer essentially unmodified bungalows with a bit of character bought from a very long-time or original owner or their estate.0 -
Ain't it the truth!!
well said!
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Margin Differential
You al talk about losing out to the "low bidder". You always compare your quote to the one's who cut corners, don't do heat losses, have lower standards and skills of piping and design. But, is it always that way? What about the competitor who is equally competent, doesn't cut corners as far as valves, purge valves, system design. You make it sound like your the ONLY ones competent bidding on the job. What about YOUR net profit margin, compared to an equally competent competitor's margin? Maybe he doesn't need the swimming pools, SUV's, Toy's, that you guys need or want as justification for your professional value?
There is cost of materials, cost of overhead, and "what do I want this year". Maybe that's the difference.
I don't see it as "black and white", between the "lowest bidder" and YOU. There may be others out there. Yes, the "lowest bidders" are a factor, but, are they the ONLY factor?
Jed0 -
Spoken like a true low bidder.0 -
I love this line:
"Maybe he doesn't need the swimming pools, SUV's, Toy's, that you guys need or want as justification for your professional value?"
I can see where your comming from, and I agree to a point, but thems a fightin words.
It's been said above that people dont mind losing bids to competent "legit" companies. Its when you go back a year or two later to fix the problems of the bid you lost after a hack has done his thing.
I am usually on the lower end of the bids because I am a one man shop with very little overhead. I dont have any employees, and real office (other than my basement) Any real shop other than my garage. My wife carries our health insurance.
Perhaps the most importaint part of my busines equation is that I am a technician. I base my entire budget of supporting my family on maintenance of my customers systems. So long as my yearly maintenance is done on all my customers, my bills are paid.
Installation work in my budget is all gravy, and if it means losing a little gravy to have a very hapy customer with a well designed, modern heating system providing comfort for their family, I am happy with that.
- Norm0 -
Will Uncle GUS be there..................................????
I have a bone to pick with the ol' Greek. Mad Dog
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MADDOG we are a fairly new company & would appreciate a copy of that list & any other selling tips
Thanks,
DANIEL0 -
Compairing, huh?
I'm sure you have noticed how the majority of doctors, lawyers, etc. live. Dare I say that their life style is more attractive than mine? Do they not charge LARGE numbers for what they do/know? And I'm confident in saying that their is also a hole full of dr.s & ly.s not making so much. The principal of my shop and many employees, my self included, are handsomely rewarded for our services/what we know. I was the on site supervisor of a $1.7 M, six month project involving my shop and six subs. During the monthly walk thru's and upon completion no one had any items for a punch list. We are doing more like this for the same owners because they know quality. So for all this knowledge that is available at my shop, we should selll it cheeply? Why can't I drive that BMW? The "other" guys never get haggled, why shoud we? Ego??? I'm proud of my trade and who I am. I know how much I am worth. No one else knows. If ya want me, pay for me. bwdik/ijap0 -
I lost one today
According the homeowner, I was about a thousand dollars higher than the next guy. I broke the bid down and figured this out:
1) I bid an additional $400 for extra labor in case we found a hidden problem. This would have been deducted from the total if everything went well.
2) I was offering to have the boiler directly shipped to his house. Freight companies now-a-days can tell you nearly to the minute when the delivery will occur. This would have saved him about $100.00, because we wouldn't have to handle the boiler. The owner is retired and able to sign for the delivery.
3) My price included a new air purger (spirovent) and circulator, about $300.00 worth, especially if you include labor.
These total to about $800.00, so I actually lost by $200.00. I spelled all this out in the proposal, especially the possible hidden problems.
Like others, I don't have a swimming pool, a large SUV, or other toys (unless you call a 1980 model, 18HP diesel tractor a toy).
I'm one of very few residential boiler people in my state (That's why the boiler would have to be shipped here). Of course, I could charge whatever I wanted and get it most of the time, but I don't. I want to make an honest living. I love what I do.
Thanks for listening.0 -
Well said Frankie !
Your point SHOULD be taken...We do WHAT WE KNOW. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it.
It costs alot of money per year to keep ME trained and profecient in the latest technology. It costs as much as anyone else to keep my truck outfitted and safe...it costs as much for insurance as anyone else pays....I try to keep all the pieces that I know I will need in my vehicle, to save trips to the supplyhouse, and most of all.... I'M WORTH IT...DAMMIT!!
Just because your profession has a fancy title doesn't mean that you won't need ME! I know what I know, because I spend lots of time studying and keeping up with the latest and best options. If Jed feels that this is "charging too much for what we do", Too flipping bad !
I work hard for what I get, and deserve to be compensated for it accordingly. Peddle that kettle of fish somewhere else pal.If you don't think we're worth it, you're missing the boat. (BTW, I drive a Pontiac, live in a condo and have noone banging on my door or calling me at all hours demanding money that I owe them. Not because we charge too much, but because we know how much to charge them!)
Chris.
P.S. Jed,My title is TECT. (Thank you Robert Bean!) Thermal Environmental Control Technician. That's 2 more than DR.! JCA0
This discussion has been closed.
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