Munchkin only partially condensing...normal?

Supply House Rick

I have DDD in C-5, C-6 & C-7, Physical Therapy, anti-inflammatory and the Home Traction device have worked wonders for me. I opted out of the Steroid injections in my freaking spinal cord after talking to people that have had that lovely proceedure. Sometimes nerve damage and infections can occur, not to mention they use a needle that could be used for knitting! Mark, I hope the best for you and have a happy holiday season...
Rick


*the nameless one has lost all respect in this forum, he's not worth your time*

Jim Cheung

I read here that there should be about 1.15 gallons of condensate per therm of natural gas.

I put a plastic pail (covered with lid, except for a hole for the drain pipe) under my Munchkin. It is currently running at 115-120F supply temperature. I find that it is producing about 0.7 gallons of condensate per therm.

Now I understand that the maximum won't actually be ahieved except under ideal circumstances, but should the amount of condensate be so low? I'm gtting less than 60% of the full amount.

Is there a list of possible problems that can cause the condensate amount to be lower than normal but not zero?

Many thanks,

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Is the boiler vented horizontally or vertically?

Jim Cheung_2

Horizontally, by which I mean the PVC pipe goes up a couple of feet and then horizontally for 10-15ft and out the side of the house.

I'm not seeing any dripping at the vent, but it's pretty dry outside. Certainly the exhaust is visible in cold weather, which means there is some moisture in it, but I can't tell you how much.

W.T. Head

No, you should be 100% condensing below about 130F return. Your boiler is bad.

Marty_8

As far as condensation goes you will never be able to extract all the water from the exhaust with out some fancy engineering. You would need to run the exhaust through a
chilled metal pipe cooled to a temperature around 32 deg. somewhere around 20 feet long and a larger diameter to allow for friction loss. This would give the moisture time to fall out of suspension and collect on the cool surface and drain out the end. This could also be affected by the outside air temp and humidity.

Constantin

Hmmmm....

I don't think any condensing boiler is ever going extract 100% of the latent energy in the flue gases unless you run very low return temperatures and then through ME's GFX rig for a good distance. Some energy will always exit with the flue gases unless you cool them to the point where they are just as cold as the exterior temperatures. On the other hand, you are running a low supply temperature, so the rig ought to be quite efficient.

At the very least, take it as a sign that your condensing boiler is probably currently running about 93% efficient, assuming it's extracting 60%+ of the latent heat. That's way ahead of most homes. Perhaps you should consider a call to Chuck Shaw and the rest of his crew at HTP and see what they think. Perhaps the boiler needs an adjustment, but without an anlysis of some of your local gas, it's hard to tell just how efficient a boiler is...

After all, the caloric content of city gas is supposed to be 100kBTU/therm but has been measured at 60-160kBTU/therm in the wild. Also, the authorities are not required to send you natural gas, it could be all sorts of things that produce more or less condensate than methane when they are burned. Could make a big difference on the amount of condensate you measure.

A technician with a combustion gas analyzer could give you most the answers you need. If it really bugs you, get someone into the house and leave you a printout. Then post the numbers, they'll give the pros here something more to chew on.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

The flue gas coming from a condensing boiler is nearly 100% saturated with vapor. It's also significantly warmer than the (usually) very dry winter air. With a horizontal flue just passing through the basement, the flue gas doesn't cool much on its way out, so you don't get much further condensation in the flue itself. Look at your exhaust on a cold, dry day. You'll see the rest of the condensate...

Jim_65

Come on now that's just silly.

Jim Cheung_2

You bought a condensing boiler, not a partially condensing boiler. I would ask for a refund.

With full condensing, you should get over 10% increase in efficiency over an otherwise identical but noncondensing boiler. But you are only getting 6% more efficiency. So this is false advertising.

[Deleted User]

Ya know...W.T. Head...

it's people like YOU that make the hair stand up on the back of my neck. Make stupid comments, using a stupid un-idenitfiable emaill address, then run.

If you have nothing intelligent to add to the conversation, then DON'T.

ME (suffering with a pinched nerve at c-5)

Constantin

Trolls come in all shapes and sizes...

.... more importantly, is your back getting better? (I presume that is what C-5 is referring to)

[Deleted User]

Thanks Con...

Unfortunately no, it's not. I've run through the gamit of doctors, consultants, accupuncturist etc, and it all keeps coming back to the need for surgery.

I'm seeking second opinions.

Talked to one of my students who had disc replacement/enhancement surgery, and he said he would NOT do it again.

Talked to a customer of mine who had it done and he said DO IT ASAP.

Not sure which direction I'll go. Gonna have to wait for a while for sure. Too many travel/teaching commitments for now. Maybe next summer.


In any case, I guess its wearing my skin a little thin if I'm letting nameless peons get to me on The Wall...

TO all, please accept my intolerance.

I'll try to control it with drugs.;-)

ME

[Deleted User]

Jim C...

How can you be sure that the appliance is taking on a full therm per hour? It's a modulating appliance.

I have one in my own home with more monitoring on it than most laboratories, and I can tell when it's running full out, but I have to FORCE it to do so. The only way I've been able to do that is to hook a purge directly to the boiler and flood it continuously with 40 degree F water. Hardly a "normal" operating parameter.

Under normal operating considerations, even at design conditions outside, it modulates way back from it maximum potential output.

Have an expert with combustion analysis and Munchkin technology run a test on it, and DON'T WORRY, you're comfortable aren't you :-)

ME

Constantin

I highly recommend percosets...

... the doctors at the hospital prescribed more than I could legally take in the period I was supposed to take them for. I couldn't figure that one out, though when I had to rake the yard 3 days after my non-laproscopic appendectomy, it was the percs that made it possible. Still hurt though...

Whatever route you choose to address your back pain, I hope that the outcome is positive and the recovery quick and complete.

Jim Cheung_2

> How can you be sure that the appliance is taking

> on a full therm per hour? It's a modulating

> appliance.


I am reading the number of therms consumed on the gas meter. Nothing to do with therms per hour.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

I had an acutely "pinched nerve" at C4-C5 a few years ago. Had had bouts of increasingly worse (intensity and duration) pain for years. Absolute worst thing that ever occurred to me in my life. Last bout had me hospitalized and one step away from "total blockage" where you loose bowel control. Neurosurgeon megadosed me with decadron (probably expecting to have to do an emergency surgery). Steriods ended the episode but I would up with steroid psychosis.

Neurosurgeon assured me that I would have another attack and that it would be more acute. Knowing what that meant, I said "cut". DO NOT REGRET IN THE LEAST. Recovery is a **** because you have to be so careful and so limited for quite a period of time.

If you have places going dead numb, PLEASE BE CAREFUL!!!!

p.s. Nothing in the way of prescribed drugs really helped. Was washing down the maximum allowed with 2-3 scotches just to rest at night. Did that for over a week before saying, "Enough!" Even IV morphine would just put me in a state where I didn't really care about the pain...

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Sincerely try Zostrix INSTEAD of narcotics. It's a capsican-based cream. Apply frequently and liberaly but again, DO NOT TAKE NARCOTICS AT THE SAME TIME! Give at least three days to judge the effect.

That was the ONLY thing that gave me some true pain relief but the relief DISAPPEARED if I took the narcotics that were prescribed to me.

While it was effective for me, it does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to help the underlying problem!!!!!!

[Deleted User]

Got ya...

Still, way too many "what if's" in the equasion. I think you read the theoretical ideal, and those conditions only happen in the laboratory. Never in the field.

I still wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

ME

S Ebels

Dear WT

Please look up the quote attributed to Lincoln where he talked about remaining silent in order to conceal one's ignorance.

Then apply it to yourself.

Xc8p2dC_2

way of topic, but

I Can't provide plumbing help. but any help, helps

Hey MarK E, I also had a C5 nerve prob [Radiculopathy -sp]
Pinched nerve that shut off my left arm in 1987

Had the option for RotoRooter surgery to release the pressure on the nerve, but surgery had major risks

I choose neck traction [made me a little taller] and physical therapy for a year and have been fine since

This was my scenerio , maybe not yours, thought I would pass it along>> Good luck to ya>> Rich