Low cost alternatives

Josh_10

Hi guys, I am having a really hard time compromising the integrity of my heating systems in order to be competetive. I have the same problem everyone else does. That is my competition is willing to install CombiCor's or hot water heaters in order to get the job.

My question is though what do you guys do for low cost systems that you can still feel good about without having to stoop as low as to install a hot water tank or CombiCor?

ed wallace

low cost alternative

a boiler that has a good warrenty at least 20 yrs in lenth water heaters have issues when it comes to legionaries desease in ma combi cors are very rare

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Brad White_9

Ah, but

... a water heater, inefficient as it is, being atmospheric, is still designed to take continuous raw, cold, oxygenated water and heat it to 120, 140 or more.

When decoupled as a closed system (not combined with domestic water) there is no Legionella issue, no more than in your boiler. In the past I have advocated use of DHW heaters for low-cost applications but have been shot down on the Legionella issue- moot since I would never drink from a heating system.

When recirulating water with all free air removed, I can imagine how much longer they will last and for only a few hundred dollars.

No neat stop/start nor modulation features granted. It is but a rudimentary heat source.

I think the key to any heating system (aside from proper sizing of course) is the controls. How well do you deliver the heat in proportion to the heat loss? That is where you need to make your mark, controls and distribution. Later, they can change out the DHWH/Boiler for a ModCon and move up.

Devil's Advocate but I think the rationale is sound when properly applied. =:^)>


EDIT: Forgot to add- 150 psig ratings on the vessel, higher than the 30 psig limit on a boiler x5. With recirculated water at 15 psig, you have a 10x safety factor. With a 30 psig ASME valve, better still.

Josh_10

Water heater is a 4 letter word as far as I am concerned!

Cosmo_3

but...

Is it a boiler? This is the one nagging point I can't get over every time this is suggested to me on a job. I mean, lets say the unthinkable happens, and the insurance companies ask me if the water heater was approved for this use? It is NOT a boiler. To me it is a simple question of business liability, even though it will not be a domestic/hybrid use situation. Of course this does not mean that I would hesitate using one for my own temporary/testing/etc use, and always fitted out w/ relief valve, etc. You can do a search on this subject in the Wall archive, I remember more than a few lively debates on the issue.

So the answer as always is...no, well depends


Cosmo Valavanis

Dependable P.H.C. Inc.

Paul Pollets

I like....

a case of Bic lighters. Cheap and readily available.

I've had serious problems with the longevity of the CombiCors. I would not seriously recoomend them except for low cost budget jobs making sure the customer knows (in writing) they will be warranted for 1 year only for labor.

The competiton will always install lower cost products. The T50 Munchkin is a very low cost modulating boiler. Much better for the application.

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Brad White_9

One other point

Where else can you get a boiler rated for 150 psig yet get to operate it at maybe 15 psig. Not to take issue with you, but in fact it has many features most boilers would die for. But what it does not have is a way to shut itself off (your garden variety DHWH). But it does have an ASME relief valve, is made for tougher duty and runs far below it's envelope limits.

If it was all I could afford for a boiler, and I would sleep well with it in my house running at low pressure conditions, given that it's sister heating my shower water takes in cold raw water at much higher pressure. If the second one would bother me, why not the first?

But is it a boiler? No, but better in some ways.

My $0.02

Brad

Brad White_9

Public schools will do that to you



Seriously, I am not advocating that you violate your principles to remain competitive. Your market may be a little less easy to find is all. I value quality and I value value. A heat source is just that, comes in all colors, shapes, sizes and efficiencies. Controls and distribution can compensate for a less than perfect heat source. But the best heat source cannot be effective without good controls and distribution.

Josh_10

Hey Brad I have a post just for you on the Wall... Can you check it out?

P.S. You should have seen the publik skool I went to!

Cosmo_3

I am not disagreeing w/ you buddy. Just isn't a boiler.



Cosmo Valavanis

Dependable P.H.C. Inc.

Cosmo_3

back when I went to school

I came home once feeling like that guy in Jim French's post. But what do you expect when a 7th grader tells an 11th grader to go (insert four letter expletive) himself after he laughed at my bobo's.


Cosmo Valavanis

Dependable P.H.C. Inc.

Brad White_9

We agree, Cosmo

And I take your underlying point to heart.

Maybe the code authorities will someday loosen up. Like low cost housing after Katrina, good economical and safe solutions have a price point. And I did not invent the CombiCor in case you were wondering

Ron Schroeder

I did not invent the CombiCor

Circumstantial evidence could weigh heavily against you in a court of law Brad.

Brad White_9

At least my Dad did not name me

Dip Tube!

(My sister, A.O. Smith, she has issues also, entirely of her own.)

hr

Have you priced a CombiCor lately?

Not exactly an entry level component anymore If you really want to go water heater, install two. One for DHW and a second just for the radiant. A much lower priced option.

Also the Combi's need a high head circ to get anywhere near the rated output, factor that in as well as an approved tempering valve for the DHW sid of the Combi.

Now factor the efficiency of the unit with all the additional "stuff", and a small boiler starts to look a lot better.

hot rod

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Nron_13

take a look at the burner

and tank after a 1 or2years of running the burner is corroded and the tank will show stress cracks , HWT are not designed to run for long periods of time at low temp ,

hr

I think they want you to drive

them pretty hot. As I recall they come with a 160F aquastat. About the only way to get much performance from that HX is to run them hot. It only has one pumped flow,unless you recirc the DHW side, not a great heat transfer design.

This, as I mentioned above, requires at least a DHW tempering valve, maybe a radiant side one also depending on your "B" side temperature needs.

Been there done that...

hot rod

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