I'm a circaholic

Cosmo_3

> show it off. I dare ya' :-) <BR>
<BR>
Cosmo Valavanis

Dependable P.H.C. Inc.

Wayco Wayne_2

Hello

My name is Wayco Wayne and I'm a circaholic. (Hello Wayne) I can't seem to get enough of circulators on my hydronic panels. I'm even adding extra ones for constant circulation. Is for for increased comfort for the customer, or is it an troubling issue that runs deeper? Hmmmmmm. I like how they look all lined up on painted plywood panels. I ooh aand ahh when the Switching relay lights come on and off. I find it mesmerizing to hear the quiet whirl of a wet rotor spin. Let's face it I have a lawn chair in front of my own system so I can watch it instead of TV. Actually.... this is in response to ME's comments about folks lke me who use too many circs. It has me thinking of the times I could have used zone valves but didn't. Is the electricity saved that considerable. Many times I am retrofitting into an unknown existing system and I am SWAGing the flow rates and don't want to be caught short. (Do the Math Wayne. Yeah I know, I know) I love the 3 speed grundfos, because I can start it on low speed and if I'm short of flow I can go up a notch or 2. I actually balanced a system the other day by switching speeds on the circs on the different zones. It worked too. I'm looking forward to having the delta P variable speed pumps, but how soon? But in the meantime zone valves and circs are comparable in price. Why, or why not use one or the other? Your comments are welcome. WW

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Weezbo

The Beauty of it Wayne....

No commercials*~~/:)

Constantin

The mere homeowner SWAG...

... my feeling is that the debate of ZV's vs. circulators is a bit misplaced at the moment due to the absence of very small circulators that have standard iso-flanges to play with. Were Grundfos or whoever to produce and widely distribute small circs in the 20W range, I imagine that the pump-panel fanatics could be satisfied without excessive electrical losses (6W vs. 20W). Lest we forget, the 15-58 3-speed consumes anywhere from 45-85W of energy while running.

The big thing though regarding small circs is designing systems to accomodate them. Retrofitting them into existing systems may be difficult due to small tube diameters, high head losses, etc.

In closing, some ZVs have had a reputation for being failure-prone, so I could see why many pro's would prefer systems that minimize the overall failure rate... put in 10 ZV's with a 1% chance ea of failing in a year and you have a 10% per year callback opportunity. Put in 10 circs with 1/2 that failure rate and you will have boosted your profitability because the customer pays the up-front cost (which results in higher markup if the pumps are more expensive than ZVs) and any callbacks come out of your own pocket.

J.C.A._3

Hello,

My name is Chris, and I am slowly working my way out of being a circulator junky.

Wayne, I feel your pain, and deal with it on a daily basis. I'm slowly coming around to the zone valve way of thinking by the sheer fact that the controls are getting so much more simple. With the ZVC's and all the different valves available, I'm at a loss to explain why we didn't start using this strategy sooner.

My take on the situation is as follows. I will use "spring close" valves on any job where I know that the pipes are tightly and permanantly mounted by ME. If there are any doubts about the integrity of the hangers and or the pipe was installed with hangers going around old insulation, I will stick with "slow acting zone valves. This came to light in a recent job, and when I explained my thoughts to the supplier....I think it made HIM think a bit more about what he's selling.(Wow, why didn't I ever think about that?)

The power consumption will definately be decreased over a pump per zone AND with the Pressure Differential Bypass Valves available to us now, a pump can be sized for total flow, and adjusted to needed flow with them.

Nothing is getting less expensive these days. To be able to show a customer both fuel AND electricity savings on any job will be a big step to getting your foot in the door and getting them to listen to you.

I'm Chris, and I was a circulator junky, but I'm working on it..

Cosmo_3

I'm there with ya Chris

I am working on a large residential project now, 16K sq ft. It is heated using 5 hot water coils in front of the 5 a/c air handlers. I was considering during the planning stages using one pump for the 5 fancoils, but the construction, and the location of the mechanical room did not really make my ideal of having one main running down the center of the house a reality. I am really interested in using the diff P variable spd pumps when they finally become available for residential jobs. So now I have a mechanical room w/ lots of pumps, everybody who looks at it thinks it is sooo cool.... but I am reluctant to be so proud and show off here because we all know better. But what am I to do? I am trying to get out of the circ mentality, just need more opportunities.......


Cosmo Valavanis

Dependable P.H.C. Inc.

Ernie

Ernie

Ernie

Zone Valves

Anybody use belimo zvs? Recently came across schematic in an old Erie catalogue where 1 pump is driving 3 zones of heat and an Indirect. I am thinking of redoing my system and going to zvs.

Ragu

Yes, Wayne....

I know that I am only one circ away from being an active circaholic; but I just can't get away from that first circ!

I've stayed with the multi-speed Grundfoss too. I've lost way more zone valve heads than pumps and yes, I DO set the anticipators.

I think that changes will be coming.

Mike Kraft_2

My name is cheese.............................

I am a circahoilc.The superbrute consumption is 75W.I have many clients who are weekend warriors.My expieriance with zv's is one of dissapointment.With multi zone systems there have been many failures with zv's.Which has brought my thaw machine out @ undesirable hours.Most clients weigh the decision between pumps and anti-freze and opt for the pump.

I have installed slow open and close zone heads........domestic and Euro.Those HO's shelves are now stocked with replacement heads.Sorry, all of you who are energy consious and feel that us pump heads are wasteful piggy's............I humbly scrunch my nose ,coil my tail and say oink oink in your general direction!

Costant circ is a valuable tool and I have done the math.The last constant circ job I installed had 4 pumps that I estimated $9.00-$12.00 a mo.If I only kept track of how much it cost for clients to replace or rebuild ZV's .........................me tinks it maybe a couple of sense more(misspell intended)

cheese

[Deleted User]

You talkin' to me....

YOU TALKIN' TO ME!?!?

Cheer up Wayne, I too am a recovering circaholic.

One pump at a time...

I think for the sake of conversation, I'm just going to sit back and watch. I've been rolling something around in my mind about wire to water efficiency. I'll let my brain spew forth later:-)

There IS hope. Look to Danfoss and Oventrop for help... Think non electric. It's a mantra.


OMMMMmmmmnonelectric.... OMMMMmmmmnonelectric....

The dawn of a new religion?

OMMMMmmmmnonelectric.... OMMMMmmmmnonelectric.... Say it with me...OMMMMmmmmnonelectric.... OMMMMmmmmnonelectric....

ME

Weezbo

Thats Real good *~/:)

i Like it!

Christian Egli_2

Take one of these and see me back in the morning

There is a cure, it is radical:

Steam

No ciruculators needed, it move all by itself. Zone valves and thermostatic valves have long been used to control flow.

Isn't life simple and beautiful?

OOOOMMMMMM STEAMMMMMMMMM ? (Yeah, sure!)

[Deleted User]

The mental image

of you, scrunched up nose and wiggling curly tail is more than I can bear...Especially when ROFLMAO :-)

Pump head fer sure...

ME

Steve_35

I like zone valves

for several reasons. I should be more specific. I like Taco zone valves.

We never have any ghost flows or flow check rattles. I've even used zone valves with circs because I HATE flow checks.

A zone valve and a circ are close in price IF you don't use isolation flanges and only have one circ in the system. Otherwise you need to put circ relays or a combination relay.

Circs consume more power.

Circs seem to seize when they're not used, like over the summer. Use 1 circ with zone valves and an indirect and the circ lasts a long time...usually.

I specify Taco ZVs because I like the slow opening/closing. Much less likely to get any hammering. We seldom, not never, but seldom, have to replace a head.

bob_50

Energy

doesn't almost all of the energy input of a wet rotor pump end up in the water? Where does the energy come from to drive a TRV? bob

thp_8

The 3 watts

from a tiny transformer that heats the room for the electric zv. The trv 0 power consumption.

bob_50

The TRV

not 0 energy consumption.

heatboy

Go ahead..............

show it off. I dare ya' :-)

Jaitch

I hate to admit it, but.....

I useta make some good money replacing zone valves with pump zones back in the day when zone valve powerheads didn't come off of the valve without draining the zone.....
That has changed and todays zone valves are a heck of a lot better than they were 10 or 12 years ago. Now I make some money going out and eliminating the "birds nest" of 18 gauge wire that some guys leave as the "finished install" look. A nice junction box with ONE circuit of wire to each valve head, and only ONE ciruit to the transoformer and aquastat makes troubleshooting so much easier.....

But deep down inside, I know that I will always LOVE the circ pump!!!!

Viva le WET ROTOR!

Paul Pollets

Pumps vs ZV's

I too was a firm believer in "Pumps Only" for zoning after replacing far too many ZV's. Since using Oventrop valve bodies and the slow acting 4 wire actuators, it does indeed make sense to zone with ZV's, making sure that a PBD is installed to protect the pump. I've seen zero failure rate for the new actuators over the past 3 years. If the ZV head is defective, a changeout can be done in less than 5 min. Constant circulation with a PBD with zone valves is ultimately more efficient than pumping every dang zone.

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Arthur

circoholic

Have you considered consulting a shrink???

Wayco Wayne_2

Intersting

I went to a residential no heat call yesterday where there were 3 zone valves. The boiler circ was dead. I replaced it and bled the system of all air. Then I fired everything up. Only one zone was coming back warm. I finally shut it off, then a second zone got warm. When I shut the second one off the last zone return finally got warm. Obviously the system were prioritizing because of factors like length of run height of loop and such things, to the extent that the zones proritze accordingly. I don't think thats a good thing. As a circaholic I thought to myself he needed circs instead of zone valves. Then all zones would have enough flow. What's the zone valve alternative? putting circuit setters on the returns??

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Steve_35

Hmmm

> I went to a residential no heat call yesterday

> where there were 3 zone valves. The boiler circ

> was dead. I replaced it and bled the system of

> all air. Then I fired everything up. Only one

> zone was coming back warm. I finally shut it off,

> then a second zone got warm. When I shut the

> second one off the last zone return finally got

> warm. Obviously the system were prioritizing

> because of factors like length of run height of

> loop and such things, to the extent that the

> zones proritze accordingly. I don't think thats a

> good thing. As a circaholic I thought to myself

> he needed circs instead of zone valves. Then all

> zones would have enough flow. What's the zone

> valve alternative? putting circuit setters on the

> returns??


If the circ is properly sized and you're already at the maximum velocity how will going to circs from zone valves change the length of time it takes water to travel from one end of the loop to the other?

Other than additional length the height of a loop has no bearing on flow in a closed system like a hydronic loop. The weight of the water moving down equals the weight of the water moving up.

In any case as long as the flow is sufficient to meet the requirements of the loop on the coldest day of the year does it really matter if it takes the water in one loop 1 or 2 minutes longer to travel from end to end?

I think this is sort of like do you prefer mustard or mayo on your sandwich.

Wayco Wayne_2

I must not have explained clearly

the 2 zones would not circulate until the first one shut off. I think there's a big difference in resistance causing the problem.

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Steve_35

I prolly didn't understand clearly.

> the 2 zones would not circulate until the first

> one shut off. I think there's a big difference in

> resistance causing the problem.


Sounds like there is something pretty wacky there. Like a loop(s) that should have been multiple cicruit or some such. In a retrofit situation like this you're probably right. It's either multiple pumps or significant repiping.