Frustrating Day!!

Warmfoot

Walked into a one year old radiant system today and it was the "mother of all abortions" that I have seen. The homeowners bought the tubing and controls from that vermont company. It is a 5,000 square foot house so they needed a boiler. The Vermont company does not sell boilers so they reccommended a local forced air company to install the Buderus side wall vent oil-fired boiler. Here is what I found,

1.There was no backflow preventor or pressure reducing valve on the system. They filled the system with a hose connected from the well pressure tank.

2. The expansion tank was undersized so there was major pressure change when the boilered fired.

3. 1" supply from the boiler, air purger, circulator...piped DIRECTLY to the 40 gallon indirect supply. From the indirect Return, they bumped up to 1-1/4" copper that went to a header with 6 zoned circulators for the radiant heat side. No Check valves, no Domestic Water Control. No Mixing Strategy. The boiler was set to 145 degrees, so that is where the DHW tank stayed. Each zone was piped in 3/4" (6 of them). All of them came back to a common return of 3/4". 3/4" return directly to the boiler.

4. The installer originally installed the intake damper for the burner on the exhaust. Sooted the entire side of the brand new home AND the entire basement!

5. No Low Water Cut-off, no Manual reset secondary aquastat

6. 2 oil lines coming from the ceiling - No Shut-off valve, no oil filter and no Oil safety valve

7. The control for each zone consisted of a goldline setpoint control that was connected to a floor sensor. Temp was controlled from the mechanical room. Boiler runs hot.

8. Local building inspector signed off on the system

I forgot my camera or else I would be posting pictures. Where I am going with this is I am feeling that there may need to be more regulation regarding residential boiler installation. I am not usually one for more government regulation, but this whole system was a catastrophe and should have never happened! I am tempted to call the local inspector and talk to him about this system.

I used to think that that these type of systems ould just put more money in my pocket and keep me busy, but it is starting to get old. What are the thoughts of the wallies here on residential boiler licenses and systems like what was described above? I needed to vent a bit...

Ernie Bogue

Master Hydronics LLC


<A HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=178&Step=30">To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"</A>

Weezbo

there are systems that are inherently dangerous...

so,i think that we should set good examples..do it straight so it is logical clean,and SAFE. one of my names is SAFE To me it is important to stress the idea of "Criminal negligence"to the young guys comming up..every chance you get, so that they will have at least Heard of the basic philosophy. It is almost like someday all the old sayings and thoughts will be bagged into some inconspicuos corner never to be heard from again...:(

Constantin

Perhaps?

... the inspector didn't know what to look for and/or had no interest/inclination to do so? The whole system sounds incredibly kludged... was there a system diagram that the installer followed which gave the whole thing an air of legitimacy?

To answer your question though, as a mere homeowner I can understand your rage against certain companies that make it appear as though doing a radiant DIY project is a 1-2-3 Home Depot special, weekend warrior-type project. However, going overboard with regulation is not my cup of tea either, see Germany as an example of a country with unions and protections, etc. for everything, usually via thinly-veiled "regulations".

Personally, I would prefer the RPA to simply take a stand and declare open-systems to be non-grata in the RPA tent. Furthermore, I think the RPA site could be made more accessible to non-technical people via improving the layout and increasing the amount of information available there. I found the present site visually cluttered and non-intuitive WRT the information presented there.

Jim_47

inspectors

Wouldn't it be neat if the inspector could be sued for passing something like that???
.
Cost of one towns license fee for installers tripled two years ago. I decided I was not doing enough business in that town to pay their lic fee, so I dropped my license in that town.(I had only done a couple of installs in that town in the last 5 years any way and each time I had to explain diffrent equipment to the inspector.) Since that time the town inspectors office called twice asking me to renew. I found out that 1/3 of the licensed guys did not renew their. The homeowners are now screaming for changes.
.
Simple solution: License those who prove competent, and do it at a resonable fee. Educate the inspectors, and hold them as liable for their signature as we are for the work. If you need to raise revenues, increase the permit fee not the license fee. Hold the big box stores liable for their advice given to homeowners.

Constantin

Agree

License fees only punish those that do the job right in the first place. It's better to go after permits to raise revenue as even hacks are more likely to pull those than licenses. On the other hand, how do you go after homeowners/contractors that purposely don't pull even a permit to get the work done? How do you detect such shenanigans if they pass the test of time?

At the end of the day, I think everyone would prefer a level playing field. That is, inspectors that are consistent and competent vs. installers/service techs that do likewise. Raising permit fees and other nonsense 100% per annum to allow the budget coffers to swell under a "no new taxes" election platform is a bit much for my stomach. Hopefully, the public will see these fee hikes for what they are and hold politicians accountable for them also.

John R. Hall

Installer checklist

I am curious -- do all manufacturers provide a checklist that dealers can pass along to their installers which lists everything he or she needs to do on an equipment installation? It seems to me that a basic document with areas to check or initial could go a long way to ensure that the installer has done everything necessary for a PROPER installation.

Then again, you can always lead a horse to water...

Dave Yates (PAH)

Additional government regs?

Speaking from personal experience. In my area only plumbers are required to obtain licenses and have their work "inspected". While I welcome competent inspections, the reality is that more than half of those performing inspections don't know what they're looking at or a firm comprehension of the plumbing code with sufficient knowledge to interpret the individual passages.

Now, add to the mix that not one single inspection department in all of my surrounding municipalities has a record of having prosecuted or fined an unlicensed hack (this in spite of numerous violations having been made known to them over many years).

Now they're adding mechanical systems in several areas & these same inspectors who already don't understand or know the plumbing code are expected to inspect mechanical systems. They can't possibly comply or provide any reasonable level of competency when attempting to inspect even a rudimentary radiant application.

But, once again, they're only interested in pursuing inspections with licensed plumbing contractors - not mechanical contractors (no license = no hold over the contractor) or hacks who are the clear and present danger.

Until the inspectors are required to pass muster, adding more duties won't help anything. We should be training them - either through the RPA or via seminars. Maybe Dan could set up regional education seminars with an army of Wallies willing to educate inspectors throughout the country. We could group home inspectors in on the deal or do them one day & code officials the next. I'd see this as an ongoing course that would build upon itself & a single day probably insn't enough to start. I'm thinking that should be a minimum of three days to instill a set of basics upon which courses could move into more specific details. Retest in six months to verify retention. We should be as tough on inspection agent requirements for proficiency as we are on ourselves.

That way we could be proactive regarding the problems that plague our industry.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Paul Pollets

Recourse

That boiler was sold to a company that had little or no experience. Why aren't they held accountable? I'll bet this system will cost $5K-10K to fix, just in the boiler room. Then we have to wonder what the radiant install was like??? 16" centers for tubing? The codes should have a callout for required equipment (LWCO, MRHL, Barometric damper, RPZ, etc.) However in the state of WA, some areas do not require boiler inspections for residential work...like unincorporated King county. There are an abundance of hacks and hackmasters. They will always install systems poorly. Code compliance and training is a difficult issue. No offence Dave, but sending an inspector through a training course won't guarantee proper installation. Most of the time, the inspectors can't see the forest for the trees. The homeowner is boxed into a corner, and will pay some big dollars for a fix. And it is true that you get what you pay for.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Constantin

Right on the money...

In order to make life bearable for those that do honest work, those that do not should be prosecuted. In other words, towns ought to prosecute those who do not pull a permit when one was required and the penalties ought to hurt.

I also hear you regarding the competency of inspectors, their workload, and their ability to figure out if a system was properly installed or not. Ideally, they'd have a rep from the boiler manufacturer (and another from the controls manufacturer, etc. ) with them to know what to look for. Granted, there are hard-and-fast ground rules WRT all HVAC installs, but the idiosyncracies and the scope of the equipment out there can be mind-boggling.

Dale

Training inspectors

My company just sponsored a full day review of NFPA 54 the national fuel gas code, we paid a sanctioned NFPA trainer to fly in for 4 days from NH to do this for all our techs, just as a review. We contacted every municipal inspector in the dozens of towns we serve to come in for FREE. We paid NFPA for the extra people signing up, materials included and the certificate and CEU's. Want to guess how many takers? 4 showed up, 2 each from the main city we serve and 2 from the largest suburb, all full time staff, smart guys. Preaching to the choir as usual. Why, so few? The smaller towns pay part timers to inspect on a per inspect per fee basis. The town inspection fee pays the inspector a little and rest is a tax, excuse me user fee, income stream to the town. Bottom line, part timers don't get paid if their in trainging, no pay no show. Why are there so many home inspectors and so few municipal inspectors who know anything, let's guess $350 for 3 hours work and no legal accountabiliy or $15 an hour and people screaming at you for doing your job to make them safe.

joel_4

get pictures!!

this is the stuff we need to combat the vermont folks. what statewas this? in mass no inspector would ever pass that.

Unknown

inspectors and licences

Dave,

Some great examples from New England:

VT, CT, ME, MA ALL require ALL trades to be licenced.

First hand knowledge from ME and MA that you equipment MUST be state approved. In ME that means you have to train the state inspectors on the proper installation.

PA could take a few pages from their notebooks :-)

wheels

Dave Yates (PAH)

sounds like

it would have to be manditory with a satisfactory grade before they would be allowed to inspect.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Dave Yates (PAH)

agreed

Paul,

I completely agree, but training would help - especially if it was mandatory they pass proficiency exams. We did.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Joe@buderus

Ernie,
Thanks for the assistance with this DYS. The customer had called us here at Buderus. We, in turn, did talk to our representative in the area who I assumed got you involved.
Thank you!
Buderus Hydronic Systems

Unknown

Dale, next time you want

to do NFPA 54 let me know I can give you a great one day class. I have done it many times, not sure if my price would be more or less than who you had but I am sure we could work something out.

Warmfoot

Pictures

I will post pictures the next time I go over there...I have the same boiler and tank in my shop and I invited the homeowner to come over and take a look at it so he could get an idea of what needs to be done to his.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Warmfoot

Joe,

> Ernie, Thanks for the assistance with this DYS.

> The customer had called us here at Buderus. We,

> in turn, did talk to our representative in the

> area who I assumed got you involved. Thank

> you! Buderus Hydronic Systems





To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Warmfoot

Joe,

Yes, Brett referred the homeowner to us, I am sure we will be able to correct everything. BTW, my two installers just back from your offices in NH and had nothing but good things to say about your operation there. Keep up the good work there. Thanks,

Ernie Bogue

Master Hydronics LLC

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Dale

Thanks Timmie

I suggested that, however higher ups decided to go directly to NFPA in Quincy Ma. Ted L. who normally would come couldn't so they subbed it to Educ. Training and safety Asso. of Marlborough NH. I must say that Ed Anderson ( a propane/air background) of ETSA did a good job of presenting the canned NFPA materials. I don't know if you have ever worked with them but you might want to see if you could throw some business each others way. 888-883-C3H8 ( which I thought was a typo until I thought a bit. Operator qualification ( which is huge as you know in the nat gas business) also affects the little and not so little propane companies and they have little clue as how to provide needed training and documented qualification.

Robert O'Connor_7

Inspection???

You say the building inspector signed off on the job? Where is the plumbing inspectors signature? What state was this in? It sure wouldn't happen in MY town. I'm not familiar with what qualifications are needed in other states to get licensure as an inspector but I can tell you New Jersey has some of the most stringent in the country. We do in fact require either an engineers license or 7 years as a journeyman in that discipline to at least be considered, then you have to take several courses before you are to sit for examination. Every inspector is required to go for continuing education within the renewal period, in my case I have to take 8 classes (not counting the master plumbers required CEU's) to renew. I'm not saying there aren't a few inspectors that aren't so smart I'm stating that MOST of my fellow inspectors are educated, experienced and seasoned professionals and would not of passed what you claim has been passed...Robert O'Connor/NJ