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why are these shut off valves always used?

ron
ron Member Posts: 301
I scavenged this pic from another thread here to show what I am asking...



all the red colored shut off valves...
  1. what are they called? stopper valve or gate valve?
  2. why aren't ball valves used? Especially in the hydronic loop wouldn't there be less restriction?
  3. I know these valves are common in older (pre 1990) home's. Are builders (plumbers/hvac) installing systems in new homes these days still using these sh1t valves? Is it / was it because they dgaf and will be long gone when the valves become problematic after 5 years and they are the cheapest of all valves to buy?
  4. is my anger towards those types of valves misplaced?
mattmia2SuperTech

Comments

  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 10,278
    IMO

    1. Isolation valves....those could be gate or globe valves.

    2. Probably price. Globe design would produce the most restriction and cheapest buy.
    Gate valves may not give 100% shut off and the gate can become dislodged eventually.

    3. Ball valves were a fairly new item in the 80's, certainly more money and perhaps not readily accepted, as any new product is today.
    still used...yes dgaf.....yes taillight warranty....yes

    4. No
    Larry Weingarten
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,863
    I don't actually know what they are but my guess is they're globe valves.

    That being said.....

    All valves need to be exercised including ball valves.


    I actually used washer type stops on the sinks I just did in my own house because I find they work fine and are usually adjustable where ball type aren't. Of course... I did go with brass Brasscraft ones, but none the less they're washer type. I also replaced a few ball valves on my boiler with washer type after grit etc chewed up the ball valves in a short time.

    I suppose my point is, ball valves are great, but they aren't always better especially the cheap ones and none of them fix neglect.



    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 20,416
    Every style of valve has applications which it is good for. Similarly, every style valve has applications to which it is not well suited. There is no "one size fits all". There is a very understandable tendency to settle on one type of shutoff valve for much of one's work -- for example, ball valves in smaller sizes work well. Indiscriminate use of any one type can give problems, or at best be less than satisfactory.

    There are applications for which gate valves are very well suited indeed (and on older installations, it might be well to remember that up to about 20 to 30 years ago, ball valves were either insanely expensive in the larger sizes, or prone to leakage).

    Bottom line -- use the correct valve for the application and you will be much happier.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    mattmia2ChrisJ
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 7,143
    I think those are gate valves in that particular post. Gate valves can be full port. The materials needed to make ball valve of the modern design, teflon and stainless steel, were not available in large quantities and inexpensively until the 80's or so. A gate valve as a service valve is pretty much equivalent to a ball valve. A gate valve can not be used for balancing because sitting partially open in flow will damage the screw and the seat. Globe valves are much less expensive than ball or gate valves where you don't need full flow and are better at balancing than ball valves. Also, unlike gate or ball valves they can be repaired with commodity parts.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,863
    mattmia2 said:

    I think those are gate valves in that particular post. Gate valves can be full port. The materials needed to make ball valve of the modern design, teflon and stainless steel, were not available in large quantities and inexpensively until the 80's or so. A gate valve as a service valve is pretty much equivalent to a ball valve. A gate valve can not be used for balancing because sitting partially open in flow will damage the screw and the seat. Globe valves are much less expensive than ball or gate valves where you don't need full flow and are better at balancing than ball valves. Also, unlike gate or ball valves they can be repaired with commodity parts.


    Plug valves are something I discovered while researching curb stops. I'm bringing them up as no one has mentioned them, and I doubt anyone would. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug_valve

    They are similar to ball valves. Something I find interesting is curb stops and corp stops appear to be the best valves money can buy, and they are expensive but most of the time they can sit for 10-20 years and yet still work.



    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 18,190
    Most likely those a gate valves used to isolate for service. Gate valves are not designed for flow balance, globe or sometimes ball valves are used for balancing.
    There are many types of engineered valves for specific application.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 20,416
    As I mentioned above, the variety of valve designs is staggering. Even in smaller sizes there is quite a selection (just a few: gate, plug, ball, globe, balanced globe, needle; then full port or partial port...) and in larger sizes you can add guillotine (sometimes called slide), cone, bypass gate, bypass ball, butterfly...). It's worth learning how they work and what their advantages and disadvantages are. At one time or another I've seen -- and often specified -- pretty much all of the above!
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    mattmia2
  • ron
    ron Member Posts: 301
    exercise your valves often...

    friends house, rental, built 1980's, water damage from laundry room leaking "globe" valve that was installed when house was built as the hot/cold shutoffs for washing machine, and kitchen sink which are currently frozen and wanting to replace kitchen sink...

    does anyone ever repair these valves? or is the repair in the real world to cut them out and replace with a cheap hydrolevel ball valve mail ordered from sh.com? show me proof that you replace globe valves in the field and i'll paypal you and buy you lunch... wait maybe not paypal my globe valve hatred can get us fined 2500 :)
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 7,143
    I usually repair them. i have bib washers and packing string and a wire wheel in my drill press. Less labor than going out and getting one and replacing it. If you maintain the packing in the first place you don't have anything to fix, if you check to see if it is leaking after you operate it.
  • bburd
    bburd Member Posts: 576
    edited November 2022
    @ron be thankful that the builder spent the money to install isolation valves so  you can change your circulators without draining the entire heating system. Many don’t bother. Including the one that installed the boiler in my last house, which was hot water with cast iron radiation, and a huge water volume. 😖🤯

    Bburd
    JUGHNE
  • ron
    ron Member Posts: 301
    bburd said:

    @ron be thankful that the builder spent the money to install isolation valves

    that above pic is not my house. The house I have problems with, quite the example of how to cut corners and dgaf, heating, plumbing, electrical, you name it. ignorance is bliss.

  • HomerJSmith
    HomerJSmith Member Posts: 1,917
    Gate valve aren't used for balancing because of low valve authority.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 18,190

    Gate valve aren't used for balancing because of low valve authority.

    and a straight sharp wedge in the flow path.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 1,911
    Interesting subject is valves. In cold climates redundant water shut off were sometimes specified. If normal shut off fails from freezing then there was some gate valve (knife?) or something that is supposed to cut through ice. The advice in this thread to exercise valves is sound but who does so? Who here exercises her household shut offs annually or even on leap years? Industry used very many butterfly valves. Range was from expensive through to cheapo. How does a good one compare to a pair of cheapo in series? Engineering beginners were assigned to evaluate butterflies for throttles.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 18,190
    jumper said:

    Interesting subject is valves. In cold climates redundant water shut off were sometimes specified. If normal shut off fails from freezing then there was some gate valve (knife?) or something that is supposed to cut through ice. The advice in this thread to exercise valves is sound but who does so? Who here exercises her household shut offs annually or even on leap years? Industry used very many butterfly valves. Range was from expensive through to cheapo. How does a good one compare to a pair of cheapo in series? Engineering beginners were assigned to evaluate butterflies for throttles.

    The very best ball valve money could buy will seize just like the least expensive. Maybe less potential to break the stem with a better version.

    I see Nibco pushing 3 piece valves recently, they can be disassembled to clean or repair.

    Again, by a show of hands, who has ever disassembled and reassembled a ball valve for service? Isn't the valve there to isolate and service something downstream? So another valve to isolate the 3 piece valve to service it?

    Maybe in food manufacturing, flowing ketchup through a valve they need to be dissembled occasionally :0
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    Long Beach Ed
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,863
    jumper said:

    Interesting subject is valves. In cold climates redundant water shut off were sometimes specified. If normal shut off fails from freezing then there was some gate valve (knife?) or something that is supposed to cut through ice. The advice in this thread to exercise valves is sound but who does so? Who here exercises her household shut offs annually or even on leap years? Industry used very many butterfly valves. Range was from expensive through to cheapo. How does a good one compare to a pair of cheapo in series? Engineering beginners were assigned to evaluate butterflies for throttles.


    I do.
    I exercise valves quite a bit actually. If I'm down the basement doing something I'll exercise the main shutoff, water heater valves etc. I'd guess my main shutoff gets exercised probably 6 to 10 times a year.

    I also exercise stops etc throughout the house.

    See, I'm the one that gets to have all the fun when a valve fails, or when the stem leaks and won't stop, so I go out of my way to avoid such fun.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    MikeAmannSuperTech
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 7,143
    I've serviced lots of globe valves. The parts for a ball valve are proprietary so I have taken a few apart but it ended up just being an autopsy because I didn't have the parts to fix it.
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 20,416
    Balls and globes are normal and pretty much all one sees these days on residential type systems. When one starts playing with larger stuff -- 3 inches and up -- you really should educate yourself on all the types of valve available, and why which one is used where.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,542
    I too exercise my valves which I installed when I built the house in 2009. Most are brasscraft....which in the smaller sizes 3/8-3/4" are China.... but I haven't had a 3/8" leak at the packing yet. And the larger ones have a packing nut, which I've had to tighten on a couple. Some ball, a few globe. 

    Now at customer's houses...I cut and replace. Generally the crusty, dissolved handle shutoffs are not worth my time. 

    As @hot_rod said, they all can leak. And if not stopped (packing nut) in a reasonable amount of time they turn into a gob of nasty. It's the big stuff that @Jamie Hall said which gets fun. The big iron gate valve with 2 or more packing nuts on a water or steam main flange mount etc. 
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
    ChrisJ
  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 1,911
    Some years ago I attended a plumbers' learning session. Asked if anyone exercised his valves at home? Shrugs and smiles. Cobbler's children suffer holes in their shoes?
    MikeAmann
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,863
    jumper said:
    Some years ago I attended a plumbers' learning session. Asked if anyone exercised his valves at home? Shrugs and smiles. Cobbler's children suffer holes in their shoes?
    You either turn them on and off a few times a year or they won't work when you need them.


    I do not believe what I do is very difficult and yes a hell of a lot easier than replacing them.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Solid_Fuel_ManMikeAmann
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,542
    I also exercise my circuit breakers at least annually. 

    I've been into many homes that the main breaker is so sketchy it takes multiple times trying to get it to close. 

    But hey, I'm a licenced plumbtrician, and coolwarmguy.....
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,863
    I also exercise my circuit breakers at least annually. 

    I've been into many homes that the main breaker is so sketchy it takes multiple times trying to get it to close. 

    But hey, I'm a licenced plumbtrician, and coolwarmguy.....
    Federal Pacific?  ;)


    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 7,143
    Pushmatics get pretty dicey when they get old too
    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 7,143
    I had one on my bench and knocked it off and it shattered in to several pieces
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 13,863
    mattmia2 said:
    Pushmatics get pretty dicey when they get old too
    You know what never gets dicey?
    Fuses.


    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Solid_Fuel_Man