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oil filter comparison the white rayon vs classic wool

ron
ron Member Posts: 217
edited April 26 in Oil Heating
for oil burner the filter element, the classic wool like a General 1A-30 or 2A-710


versus the rayon General Aire RF-1 or RF2


I thought I heard or read the white gear tooth type had better filtration versus the wool but of course would clog up sooner and need replacing... which is why the wool is favored for regular use changed once yearly under normal circumstances?

If this topic has been beaten to death, can someone post a link to it?
I'm dealing with running a 40+ year old oil tank empty, want to get as much usable oil out as possible into containers, have a larger 2A-700 filter can I'm using and want to know if I should buy a few wool filters or a few rayon filters? Or other type?

I will have a garber housing soon, that I could use I have at least one spare filter I could use, I forget how much those filters cost, if it's worth it using one of those just to do less than 100 gal (probably less than 50) from a tank that's been drafted from the top for years.... $12 mail order for garber R... should I just use on of those, or that after a wool? I think I will have an electric diesel transfer pump if my buddy comes through to really empty the tank.

Comments

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 12,009
    Either one is fine. The General filters are pretty good at catching stuff in my opinion.

    Not supposed to put old oil in a new tank although many do
    geno907
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 5,689
    Close but neither. For others that stumble onto this post, everyone should be using bio rated gaskets. Even if you think you aren't getting bio, if the refinery or tank farm has it, you're probably getting it, maybe up to 5%. It's in the fine print on the load ticket, even if it's not specified on the product portion.

    As @EBEBRATT-Ed noted, 'not supposed to' and almost all manufactures' state that it voids warranty. Why give your new tank a big head start on corrosion and failure.
    I'd transfer to drums, use the oil out of the drums until dry.
    While you're waiting to run dry, you can have the new tank installed, and fill with fresh new oil.
    Then when you run dry with the old oil, properly disconnect at the pump, blow it back to the drums. Change pump strainer, and attach new oil line, filters to code, properly bleed.
    steve
    Robert O'Brien
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 3,201
    I used the Rayon filters for 100% of my customers with can type filters. They are good for a year on most of the fuel tanks in my service area. There was only one company that had really dirty tanks, and they did their own service work. They had a policy of lifting the top feed oil lines up higher and higher as the tank bottom deposits got worse. They were under the impression that if they tried to sell a customer a new tank, the customer would switch to gas heat. So mentioning dirty tanks and dirty oil was avoided at all costs.

    I used the rayon filter because I had a large number of mobil home heaters with firing rates less than .70GPH nozzles. I wanted those smaller particles removed from the oil. Never really had a problem with filter clogs within a year. (unless I acquired a customer from that "other oil company")
    Edward Young
    Retired HVAC Contractor from So. Jersey.
    Services first oil burner at age 16
    P/T trainer for EH-CC.org
  • geno907
    geno907 Member Posts: 10
    Shoot, those general RF-1s and 2s are all we install. I’ve had a few customers who have neglected their boiler with lack of maintance for 7+ years. And although the filter was dirty, if I didn’t check, I wouldn’t have known.
  • Dave Carpentier
    Dave Carpentier Member Posts: 177
    Just curious..
    I switched to spin-on filters (like small car engine filters) many years ago.
    Are they considered better or worse than element type filters like this ?
    30+ yrs in telecom outside plant.
    Currently in building maintenance.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 12,854

    Just curious..
    I switched to spin-on filters (like small car engine filters) many years ago.
    Are they considered better or worse than element type filters like this ?

    My guess, knowing very little about it is the spin on are just more convenient but ultimately don't make much if any difference in regards to filter performance.

    Many cars now use a housing with a replaceable element like shown above. I had a 2011 and 2012 GM that used replaceable elements, and I now have a 2019 Hyundai that's a spin on and a 2015 Toyota that's a replaceable element.


    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 3,201

    Just curious..
    I switched to spin-on filters (like small car engine filters) many years ago.
    Are they considered better or worse than element type filters like this ?

    On replacing an oil filter, I would use the Spin-on. On new equipment, I would install a spin on. In my opinion, I believe it is easier to service and does a better job filtering. I also looked at oil filter ratings from General Filter. It appears that all the oil filters are rated at 10 microns. The Garber spin-on is also 10 micron. There are less expensive spin on filters that are rated at 35 micron. I used them a lot because I included the oil filter refill in the price of a tune-up and I wanted to keep my cost down. $7ish compared to $12ish for spin-on compared to $1ish for the RF1.

    Spin on was just easier for a maintenance call. Spin off, dump the whole thing in the collection tray. Spin on new. The rest of the mess was taken outside to the truck for disposal. No cleaning and wiping out the canister. No dealing with gaskets, less mess inside the home.
    Edward Young
    Retired HVAC Contractor from So. Jersey.
    Services first oil burner at age 16
    P/T trainer for EH-CC.org
  • ron
    ron Member Posts: 217
    edited April 27
    so i am just recognizing the 10 micron for what seems to be all the oil filters available for home heating.

    For whatever reason, however long ago, I had the impression the spin on Garber filter was better, but that also states 10 micron. I suppose it was here that I saw a preferable filter setup was to do a wool 1a-25b filter off the tank followed immediately by a spin on Garber.

    Given the garber is supposedly filtering no better than the wool filter, anyone care to comment on the benefits of using a 1a-25 + garber versus doing two 1a-25 wool filters in series off the tank? Other than the Garber with its housing having a vacuum gauge looks cool.... I guess if money and space were no object what's the best home heating fuel oil filter setup ?
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 12,009
    My test in the old days was did you get calls for plugged oil lines or plugged nozzles or plugged pump strainers. If you do the filter is not doing his job.

    In the old days you would find the small generals filters plugged and the nozzles etc. were fine.....it was doing it's job and seldom plugged up in less than a year even with the wool element.. I think the rayon filters do a better job

    The filters that let stuff through were the old Fulflow filters if using the yarn element.

    I agree with @EdTheHeaterMan the smaller nozzles under a gallon (which is most everything now) are more difficult to protect
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 5,689
    I don't really think small nozzles make that much of a difference. IIRC correctly, isn't the hole in the nozzle something like 1/10 the thickness of a human hair? What's the difference in that hole from a .70 to a .50?
    steve
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 12,009
    @STEVEusaPA
    Back when i did oil it just seemed like anything under a gallon was more problematic than anything over a gallon and that anything under.75 was more of a problem. We didn't have spin on and rayon filters back then.
  • Robert O'Brien
    Robert O'Brien Member Posts: 3,451
    I'd go with a pin on and change annually at least, standard canisters don't last as long as they used to
    To learn more about this professional, click here to visit their ad in Find A Contractor.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 12,854
    I have a question....

    Why do the filters get dirty so fast?  I've never seen fuel filters changed this often on cars, ever.

    I know the filters are actually getting dirty, but why?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • DJD775
    DJD775 Member Posts: 144
    edited April 27
    I think diesel/#2 fuel is inherently dirtier than gasoline. My friend has a diesel truck and he seems to be changing filters all the time. Never really think about it on a modern gasoline powered car.
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 5,689
    edited April 28
    ChrisJ said:

    I have a question....

    Why do the filters get dirty so fast?  I've never seen fuel filters changed this often on cars, ever.

    I know the filters are actually getting dirty, but why?

    Probably bio, bad bio stock, and improper handling/storage. Bio seems to clean the tank and send it to the filter. I had a lot of that when I first started delivering bio, not so much anymore.
    If you have an older tank, not properly pitched to the outlet, or a top draw oil line, things are growing inside.
    In the US, people keep their oil tanks far to long. In Canada h/o insurance companies mandate tank replacements, I think after 10 years. And practically everywhere but North America, people have their tanks cleaned.
    As far as diesel trucks, I have no problems, but those tanks get turned over more often, plus the fuel is constantly sloshing around.

    steve
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 15,339
    I like the white rayon ones best. They let you see what was actually filtered out, which can give advance notice of tank problems. The dark-colored wool ones make it harder to see, and on the spin-ons you can't even see the filter itself.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • ron
    ron Member Posts: 217
    edited April 28
    ChrisJ said:

    I have a question....

    Why do the filters get dirty so fast?  I've never seen fuel filters changed this often on cars, ever.

    I know the filters are actually getting dirty, but why?

    https://www.agcs.allianz.com/content/dam/onemarketing/agcs/agcs/pdfs-risk-advisory/tech-talks/ARC-Tech-Talk-Vol-22-Diesel-Fuel-Degradation-EN.pdf


    Since 2006, refineries have been
    required to produce Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel fuel (ULSD)
    with maximum 0.010% to 0.015% sulfur to reduce
    emission of sulfur oxides and comply with the more
    stringent U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
    requirements. In order to meet the new requirements, the
    refining process for fuels switched from fractional
    distillation to hydrocracking or hydro-desulfurization. This
    is a more efficient process, but it also depletes naturally
    occurring antioxidants and lubricants in the fuel which
    increases and accelerates oxidation and corrosion. Diesel
    fuels produced today are less stable and degrade faster
    than the diesel fuels produced 25 years ago.



    Combine the inherent instability and degradation with water/condensation and bacteria or algae or micro-organisms that can grow in diesel fuel (unlike gasoline) increases the dirtiness. The sulfur content of mid 20th century diesel was thought to be somewhat of a biocide in the diesel fuel preventing growth and sludge, when things went to ultra low sulfur (ironically for environmental reasons) that was a plus for environmental micro organisms to grow and thrive in diesel fuel. Especially in a home heating oil tank where there is no movement and fuel can stagnate and break down.

    Take diesel out of a gas station pump, it is clear, and pretty darn clean. It does seem to last ok in a 5 gal jug. My home heating oil tank, I replaced with new few years ago, I have decent sediment in the bottom just after 2 years, so home heating fuel I would say is definitely not as clean and filtered as automotive gas station dispensed diesel.

    I am in the process of replacing a typical steel 275 home heating oil tank, maybe i'll pickle jar some home heating fuel to observe the results.

    I also think that how home heating oil tanks are always vented to atmospheric... with a 1.5" or 2" pipe, no filter or way to prevent air movement also contributes to fuel dirtiness, an aerobic condition certainly isn't helping.
    ChrisJSTEVEusaPA
  • Dave Carpentier
    Dave Carpentier Member Posts: 177
    Re - the quality of diesel.
    A wise tech told me a long time ago to never store a full tank for the off season due to that.
    I always ran our outdoor tilted-to-the-outlet tank dry at end of season. 20+ yrs old and still solid like a rock. Sadly the insurance company doesnt agree and made me remove it. Such is life..
    30+ yrs in telecom outside plant.
    Currently in building maintenance.
  • ron
    ron Member Posts: 217
    edited April 28

    Re - A wise tech told me a long time ago to never store a full tank for the off season due to that.

    it would be better to have as full as possible a tank which will result in less air space and less air movement, and less condensation... with less air inside the tank for any micro-organism to grow on the tank walls not to mention rust.

    And if you use a biocide, like biobor jf, then a full tank with biocide treated fuel is about the best you can do. And/Or also diesel stabilizer (optilube bulk storage stabilizer)... if they actually help.
    STEVEusaPA
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 12,854
    ron said:

    Re - A wise tech told me a long time ago to never store a full tank for the off season due to that.

    it would be better to have as full as possible a tank which will result in less air space and less air movement, and less condensation... with less air inside the tank for any micro-organism to grow on the tank walls not to mention rust.

    And if you use a biocide, like biobor jf, then a full tank with biocide treated fuel is about the best you can do. And/Or also diesel stabilizer (optilube bulk storage stabilizer)... if they actually help.
    With machining coolant many people use a "bubbler" that I guess aerates the coolant to help stop bacteria from growing. Does any such device exist fuel diesel fuel? Does it even work the same?

    For example
    https://zebraskimmers.com/product/oxygenator-aerator/

    The Oxygenator™ Aerator reduces coolant rancidity. The bacteria within the sump thrive best when their oxygen supply is gone. When the machine is shut down for the night, the pump stops circulating coolant, traces of tramp oil float to the surface, and the oxygen supply to the fluid is cut off. This is the best time for bacteria to grow.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Dave Carpentier
    Dave Carpentier Member Posts: 177
    For sure the choices are totally full or totally empty. A part filled tank sucks spring/summer/fall air in and out and condensation develops on the inside surface. There's always an airspace though, with the vent. The heat guy quoted some group study on it, but thats a long while ago so I forget what/who. It looks pretty fair when shining a light from the filler hole.
    Since its scrap now anyhow, I should tip it up on end and go monkey on the bottom with a sledgehammer. I could drill-sawzall a chunk out and try to measure it, but I dont have a good micrometer to gauge it. Its been standing there empty for a coupla weeks, would I have to worry about fumes and sparks from sawing ? Its just diesel, but I dunno.
    30+ yrs in telecom outside plant.
    Currently in building maintenance.
  • captainco
    captainco Member Posts: 600
    I remember in the 80's when Sid Harvey came out with the Rayon oil filter. I was selling 90% condensing oil furnaces that used .50 gph nozzles. They were constantly getting clogged when using the General 1A-30 filter. What was worse is that I found in some cases, the drawer assembly and the nozzle were totally full of sludge and the felt filter was clean. I started to realize that the felt filter was capable of shrinking if it got dirty or the oil was cold. Switched to the Rayon filter and my nozzle problems went away. I did have contractors that complained when the Rayon got dirty the burner would stop. I think I would rather change a dirty filter then have to clean a sooted up furnace.

    My boss at the wholesale house was not happy when I told him the General filter couldn't be used on the high efficiency furnace. He had been selling thousands of them for 30+ years. Going out in the field with contractors and trying to solve their problems led me to find other products or procedures that weren't as good as some assumed. Most should know by now that the pump pressure at the gauge port on an oil pump doesn't always match the pressure at the nozzle port.
  • ron
    ron Member Posts: 217
    edited May 2
    captainco said:

    They were constantly getting clogged when using the General 1A-30 filter... Switched to the Rayon filter and my nozzle problems went away..



    picked up a [westwood] filter can that includes the "classic" felt filter.. i said wool in subject, i assume felt = wool? Anyway, that included felt filter was linty fibers coming off the filter, like dry deterioration, and was stuck all inside on the can, can't be good for burner nozzle? But I do wanna believe you about the rayon filters being better, just by feel and sight seem like they are just practically better.
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 5,689
    I think they say 10 microns, not 1.
    steve
    MaxMercy
  • ron
    ron Member Posts: 217
    edited May 3
    i mistyped.