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oil burner prime: using bleeder valve vs not

ron
ron Member Posts: 217
edited March 2020 in Oil Heating
having a discussion, it was said that if you have an oil burner that...

air needs to be purged from the line between the indoor oil tank and the burner. And you do that by opening the bleeder valve on the oil pump [suntec] until you get a steady stream of oil out (catching into a container). And you get the pump to run, by getting the burner to run, by holding down the red button to do a reset or put into prime mode... depending on year/make/model of burner electronics

The disagreement came to bleeding on a carlin burner that is proX or promax... it has a 120 second pump prime feature and that's done by holding the button down for 5+ seconds. And the discussion was when you tell the electronics to run the burner for the purpose of priming is when you open the pump bleeder to bleed air. It was argued why bother with opening the pump bleeder and dealing with the mess and smell just let it pump air for up to 120 seconds into the burner until it gets oil then fires and runs, what is wrong with this?

Comments

  • Big Ed_4
    Big Ed_4 Member Posts: 1,884
    The burner would prime it self without opening up the bleeder with a two pipe system or tiger loop . I like to use the bleeder incase dirt is dragged up a dry oil line. I bleed the oil until there is a clear stream rather then sending the dirt to the nozzle. ..
    I have enough experience to know , that I dont know it all
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 5,689
    ron said:

    ...air needs to be purged from the line between the indoor oil tank and the burner. And you do that by opening the bleeder valve on the oil pump [suntec] until you get a steady stream of oil out (catching into a container). And you get the pump to run, by getting the burner to run, by holding down the red button to do a reset or put into prime mode... depending on year/make/model of burner electronics

    That's really not the correct way to bleed a fuel pump on a one pipe system.
    Like @Big Ed_4 said, only 2 pipe or tiger loop will self bleed.

    steve
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,593
    I guess simply, it's a fuel pump, not an air pump.
    The pump will not self prime through the nozzle.
    rick in Alaska
  • ron
    ron Member Posts: 217
    edited March 2020
    burner would prime it self without opening up the bleeder with a two pipe system == would not self prime on one pipe setup?
    if that is the case then what technically within the pump causes priming not to happen on a one pipe system? Can you post or link a pic to a pump internal?

    I think the discussion/argument has some more pertinent info that i didn't mention: scenario is 275 gal vertical indoor tank on same concrete slab as burner. About 20 feet of 3/8" line between tank and burner, with good filters, oil tank is drawn from the bottom. Let's assume zero chance of dirt pushing into nozzle being no different than with normal operation. With the 3/8 oil line disconnected at burner pump and with a full oil tank oil will shoot 3 feet into the air. This being the case would simply letting the burner run for 120 seconds functionally self prime by just pushing the bleed air through the nozzle into the burner? It's normally pushing #2 fuel oil through the nozzle, why would the pump or nozzle or anything else care if such a bleed method was used in this case? It would work right, with the specific points being at least a half tank full of oil, tank drawn from bottom, resulting in some positive pressure at the oil pump inlet?

    SuperTech
  • STEVEusaPA
    STEVEusaPA Member Posts: 5,689
    edited March 2020
    Are you an engineer? That's how the pumps work. Don't you think if the pumps self bled they would make them without a bleed port?
    Go to Suntec, Webster, or Danfoss's website and look it up.

    With a two pipe or tiger loop you install a bypass plug in the return port of the pump. The bypass allows the pump to purge by allowing oil/air thru the return port and back to the tank or Tiger loop.
    One pipe doesn't have the bypass plug installed and doesn't self purge.
    One pipe with bypass plug installed, instantly ruins the fuel pump by blowing out the pump seals-so don't try that.

    So properly bleed it...or have problems. You received 3 answers from 3 experts so how much longer do you wish to continue the thread? Or do you have another way to ask the same question?
    steve
  • Jellis
    Jellis Member Posts: 228
    The improper combustion that would take place trying to get it to bleed that way ( if it bled anything at all) would be far more harmful than the "smell and mess" you get from bleeding.
    If you bleed with a proper hose and container and are careful then there should be no mess and barely any smell left behind.

    I carried cherry scented odor out that did a great job masking the smell of oil.

    Sounds like a good way to burn up a oil pump if you ask me.
    stevemikel
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 11,998
    @ron

    Their is a reason the pump manufacturer tells you the correct way to bleed a pump.

    First of all bleeding through the nozzle has the potential to throw oil into the combustion chamber since the nozzle may not have a full spray pattern you cold send oil in there without lighting.

    Second, you running the pump dry while bleeding through the nozzle. The pump relies on fuel oil for lubrication. Would you run your car without oil in it?

    Bleeding through the nozzle requires the pump to build enough pressure to open the internal pressure regulator while it is trying to pump air
    stevemikel
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 3,197
    edited March 2020
    The correct answer is the valve that acts as the pressure regulator and the pump cut-off inside the Suntec A model pumps, needs hydraulic pressure to open and allow anything to flow through the nozzle port. With only air pressure, the gear set will only recirculate air within the fuel pump using a single pipe from the tank. Air will compress and will not develop enough pressure to open the pressure regulator valve.

    On a 2 pipe system, a bypass within the pump is blocked with a bypass plug. The air that is compressed in the fuel pump's gearset can not return to the inlet of the pump because the bypass is blocked. That air then returns to the tank through the return line leaving room for new air to enter the fuel pump creating sufficient vacuum to draw oil from the tank until the oil reaches the gearset.

    Once the oil is in the fuel pump, the gearset can create the necessary hydraulic pressure to open the pressure regulator valve to the nozzle port on the pump. oil will flow to the nozzle at a rate of the nozzle capacity. The remaining fuel from the gearset, the oil either returned to the inlet through the bypass on a single pipe from the tank, or the oil is returned to the tank in a two-pipe configuration.

    the internal diagram is below

    Edward Young
    Retired HVAC Contractor from So. Jersey.
    Services first oil burner at age 16
    P/T trainer for EH-CC.org
    SuperTechstevemikelMikeAmann
  • stevemikel
    stevemikel Member Posts: 8
    If you draw off of the bottom port of a 275g tank you have positive pressure, that should have an Oil Safety Valve in-line which opens on upon a vacuum. A 2 pipe is the best set up with an OSV in line, even if they run it out of fuel, the 2 pipe is self priming and with positive pressure, it should be golden.
    STEVEusaPA