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New Boiler Install - Now Water Hammer on Start-Up

Alan (California Radiant) ForbesAlan (California Radiant) Forbes Member Posts: 2,283
edited June 2019 in Strictly Steam
This Peerless 64-07 was NOT installed by me. The owner contacted me when the installer refused any responsibility for the problem. They did not have a water hammer problem before the boiler was replaced.

Other than the steam header not being 24" above the water line and the fact that the skim port has a plug in it, is there anything that is suspect? Yes, the guy may have skimmed it, but don't you just leave the valve in place?

Pressuretrol was set at 1-2 psi and I changed it to ½ to 1½ psi.

The old boiler had been serviced for many years by reputable steam contractors in San Francisco and the owner told me that I was the first person to tell her to blow down her LWCO weekly.




Often wrong, never in doubt.

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Comments

  • JUGHNEJUGHNE Member Posts: 6,797
    Is the header sloped towards the right end equalizer drop?
    If not then water would collect in the header waiting for steam to come up and hammer.

    Also the skimming factor.
  • STEAM DOCTORSTEAM DOCTOR Member Posts: 1,153
    What size is the header
  • STEAM DOCTORSTEAM DOCTOR Member Posts: 1,153
    Also, is boiler oversized? I doubt it was skimmed. No one ever puts plug back in after skimming. Gets nipple and cap.
  • Alan (California Radiant) ForbesAlan (California Radiant) Forbes Member Posts: 2,283
    edited June 2019
    I didn't check:
    - the slope, but you're right: it doesn't look right.
    - boiler size

    The header is 3".
    Often wrong, never in doubt.

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  • FredFred Member Posts: 8,418
    edited June 2019
    Did the installer, by chance pull the main down when he connected it to the header. If it lost its pitch, that will do it. Header pitch also looks suspect
  • Mike_SheppardMike_Sheppard Member Posts: 657
    Check header height. Might need raised.
    Header pitch.
    Main pitch.
    Skim it.
    Check if oversized or overfired.
    Never stop learning.
  • nicholas bonham-carternicholas bonham-carter Member Posts: 8,128
    I presume the installer has been paid, and has washed his hands of it.
    He is thinking, “hey-it’s steam, of course it will be noisy!”—NBC
  • SteamheadSteamhead Member Posts: 13,775
    edited July 2019

    I presume the installer has been paid, and has washed his hands of it.
    He is thinking, “hey-it’s steam, of course it will be noisy!”—NBC

    And we're thinking- "You Can't Fix Stupid!"

    Is the boiler firing at the proper rate, not overfired?

    And, that boiler usually comes with a probe-type LWCO, that doesn't need blowdowns- why did they change it to that old 47-2 that does?
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
    randyc
  • ethicalpaulethicalpaul Member Posts: 1,581
    edited July 2019
    > And, that boiler usually comes with a probe-type LWCO, that doesn't need blowdowns- why did they change it to that old 47-2 that does?

    I wondered that too! It does look like they took every ancient control off the old boiler and put it on this one
    1 pipe Utica 112 in Cedar Grove, NJ, coal > oil > NG
  • pecmsgpecmsg Member Posts: 1,393

    > And, that boiler usually comes with a probe-type LWCO, that doesn't need blowdowns- why did they change it to that old 47-2 that does?

    I wondered that too! It does look like they took every ancient control off the old boiler and put it on this one

    Because that's the way they were taught. Proudly doing it wrong for X years!
  • clammyclammy Member Posts: 2,496
    edited July 2019
    those Riser should be higher and the header should be 4 inch .on a 64 07 iwould have done a2 inch equilizer aside from the piping my guess is the boilers dirty

    hopefully they left a tee on the return nipple into the boiler .i would remove the plug from the opposite side return tapping add a nipple n a drain valve ,from my experience I would wand the bottom of the boiler and flush and to doa good skim I would recommend installing a boiler drain oppiste the skim tap to feed water in this way you stand a better chance of getting crude out also chk and clean all pig tails . For what it’s worth I usually extend the skim tapping with a nipple and tee and re install my pigtail and pressure troll nice n hi and dry .check inlet and out gas pressure n clock the meter make sure she not over fired ,that boiler is a knock down hopefully the guy followed the direction and plugged and leak tested the block .once your past a 5 section getting them clean can be a task especially on knock downs it’s like they add more oils to the block lol here’s a 64 07 Peace and good luck clammy
    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating
    ethicalpaul
  • Alan (California Radiant) ForbesAlan (California Radiant) Forbes Member Posts: 2,283
    edited July 2019
    Peerless calls out 2½" risers, a 3" main and a 1½" equalizer for their 64-07 boiler on page 15 of their I & O manual.

    http://igate.northernplumbing.com/manuals/peerless/64.pdf

    Nice work, clammy.

    The boiler was ordered with the M/M 47-2 trim.
    Often wrong, never in doubt.

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  • clammyclammy Member Posts: 2,496
    Personally I feel all the manafactures are concerned that by giving larger pipe requirements they will lose sales due to some contractors not wanting or willing to upsize and the fact that another manafactures specs shows smaller cheaper piping just about ever steam installation that has issue is usually traced back to improper near boiler piping ,considering the cost of the boiler the installer spent squat on near boiler piping .plus if you do the math you will usually find the exit velocity to be quite hi according to there pipe spec alarmingly high if I remenber it’s usually over 40fps .I usually shoot for a max of 15 FPS and rarely if ever have issues only if the boiler is a dirty little girl or other knuckle heading that I missed .usually on older systems w wet returns I highly recommend return replace and or give them a heads up that all the crap in that 100 year old return shall return and roost in the boiler and with a float type lwco it’s not the greasy combination ,this is the reason for leaving access from both return taps on the boiler other wise how u gonna clean the bottom of the boiler . I usually add time from re skimming a few times a properly piped and installed steam boiler will usually clean decades of rust and mud and debris out of everything .dont ask how I know .i noticed a low water level in the gauge glass I ve seen guys do this to tame a bouncing water line ,in closing that is not a cheap boiler and it should be shown the respect it deserves especially with a float lwco I would suggest a probe type manual reset lwco very cheap insurance much cheaper then replacing the block unless it walk in walk out and even so it won’t be for free so that manual reset lwco is extremely cheap insurance plus it’s required in commercial setting and I feel it’s more important then a reset-able pressuretroll And one last bit after that header is blazing and before your return start returning hot check that equilizer if you find a cool spot about half way down the equilizer then you know even though the specs say 1 1/4 that the equilizer is under sized been there seen it but never done .ialways found full 2 inch the cost difference is nil and if you lose the job because of that you where better off not getting the job .when people ask for cheap steamboiler install I say just find the biggest add in the yellow pages copper undersized and cheap lol I’m quite sure that you have it working correctly in no time as always Peace and good luck clammy
    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating
    ethicalpaulBobC
  • ethicalpaulethicalpaul Member Posts: 1,581
    No one can pack as much wisdom into a paragraph as Clammy can! Thanks, I always read every word
    1 pipe Utica 112 in Cedar Grove, NJ, coal > oil > NG
  • clammyclammy Member Posts: 2,496
    Thanks for your kind words Paul .idont know if I call it wisdom but when asked how I know such things I usually say it’s all in the writ of common knowledge available to all .you never know it all it takes many many years and tons of mistakes no one is perfect and every one makes mistakes cause where all human bound to sooner or later it’s a law of averages .thanks again Peace and as always good luck clammy
    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating
    ethicalpaul
  • Yes, words to live by. Mistakes and short cuts come back and haunt us. Some learn the first time it happens; others it takes a few and then there are those that never learn.

    It’s hard to fight the “small pipe” temptation, but if you do it right enough times, it becomes a routine and how could it ever be done otherwise. Especially when you see it done wrong and there are problems.

    Thanks for your insight, clammy!
    Often wrong, never in doubt.

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