Creating another zone with an existing radiator

sarahb

Hi. I'm trying to help a church that has a small upstairs room whose radiator is always doing the wrong thing. It's going like mad in the summer and won't start in the winter unless the thermostat downstairs is set to 80+ degrees. Is it possible to get this thing its own zone? Do I need to attach it to its own mini-boiler tucked in the closet? Curious about the opinions of experts here, want to make sure these folks get an economical solution that allows them to use this room again.

SWEI

Is this a steam or hot water system? Any photos you could post, especially of the boiler and related piping, etc.?

sarahb

Steam. I don't have photos to post but the piping is coming all the way up from the basement.

Eric_32

If it were me, I'd add a main vent at the top of the riser pipe that feeds this radiator... before the radiator valve, to help vent the air out of the piping faster and get heat to it at the same time as the lower floor, and maybe a thermostatic valve between the radiator vent and radiator so it controls output if the room gets too warm... this if is a One pipe system...

Paul48

Where is the church located?

KC_Jones

Is this a one pipe or 2 pipe system?

Fred

Does this boiler also heat the hot water for the building? Is it possible that radiator is somehow tied into the zone for that demand hot water? Why else would it heat in the summer?

JUGHNE

Does the boiler run in the summer to make hot water for faucets? Pictures explain a lot.

Is upstairs one 10' story above the basement or 30' to choir loft level? Does the radiator have a pipe connected to each end of it or just 1 large pipe.

Does anyone remember if it ever worked at all?

Where is it located?

sarahb

Sorry for the delay. I was finally able to get over to the church yesterday. It's a steam system and one pipe. Church is in Minnesota. Boiler does run in the summer. It's a Weil-McLain (see photo of steam piping coming out) new installation in 04'. Upstairs (radiator is on 2nd floor) is approximately 18' above boiler. There are radiators between the boiler and this radiator upstairs.




.

Abracadabra

Better picture of the boiler... wide angle showing all the piping around the boiler from different angles please.

sarahb

Best I have. The white steam pipe coming in from the radiators can be seen coming from the wall above.

Fred

We need better pictures of the piping above the boiler and all around it. If this is a WM boiler, I'm not sure what the pipe coming out of the side of the boiler is? Too high for the equalizer, seems a little too low for a steam riser out of the boiler and I don't know that WM ever made any boilers with side tappings for risers. Where do the returns come back to the boiler?

Abracadabra

@Fred could be an LGB. Without better pictures I can't tell tho.

JUGHNE

If you can get more pictures, some of the hot water heater tank would be good also.

sarahb

Found one!

nicholas bonham-carter

There is something not right about the supply piping of this boiler, however that would not explain the heating in the summer.
What part of Minnesota are you in? you will need a steam expert to correct this.--NBC

JUGHNE

Pretty unique huh! Double header, double equalizer, one dripping into the feeder pump. 2 dry returns with minimal venting. 1 wet return going into the feeder pump.

But does anyone see any DHW connection here? Perhaps no one can find the switch to shut the boiler off in the summer or switch the T-stat to "off" position. A cool overnight in MN could fire the boiler.

How many thermostats are in the church?
Does the church require much for hot water at sinks?

nicholas bonham-carter

I was worried about the loop seal which seems to be part of the steam supply, or have I not seen all the piping properly?--NBC

nicholas bonham-carter

Maybe it's a very artistic version of the piping recommended for a counter flow system.
This heating in the summer could be a miswired, or setup thermostat, fighting with the A/C during the summer--NBC

KC_Jones

It certainly looks to me like that "header/main" could be holding water especially if there is even a little bit of pressure. Also to my eye it looks like the main on the left is pitched toward the boiler, but the returns present as a parallel flow system. Might not be a huge deal by itself, but in conjunction with the other piping. And maybe I am crazy, but why a condensate pump when the returns are obviously plenty high for gravity return? If that "header" is holding enough water couldn't it severely reduce the steam output? Reduced steam output could account for not getting steam to the furthest radiator....at least partially. I see what appear to be a couple of Hoffman #75 vents on the end of the dry returns....I doubt that is even close to enough venting in a church. Need the length and diameter of the mains and we could recommend main venting.

Abracadabra

double header! Let's play two!

no skim port?
looks like you need more main venting.

Fred

I'm still confused as to why the OP is seeing steam at any radiator in the summer. I don't see anything that suggests that DHW is heated by this boiler. If not, the boiler shouldn't even come on in the summer unless they are setting the thermostat up, above the ambient temps. If it's a one pipe system. like the OP says, putting a TRV on that radiator will control the temp in that room. Why it isn't gettin steam in the winter, when it gets it in the summer is also a mistery. I can't even speaak to the piping in the basement. It is very different. Seems to me that the only reason for the double header is so that they could have two equalizers. Why wouldn'y they have just taken the riser to the main up off of the Header that crosses the boiler and then taken two equalizers off of the end of that main? Also, That boiler should have probably had both riser tappings put to use. Anyway, none of this explains the reason for summer steam. Some of it may explain the reason for some of the winter cold???

JUGHNE

The summer overheating is most likely just a control issue. AC could come on and have cold air blowing on the heating T-stat.
Or a wiring mess up.
AC on the lower level could make those hot rads not noticed. Maybe no AC upstairs and it might be 80 up there anyway.
The best thing to do is just shut off the boiler switch that might be on the right side of the boiler.

As mentioned above adding air vents at the top of the riser upstairs or even add 2 fast rad air vents on the valve inlet end of the radiator.

Sarahb, if you could post more pictures from the same distance back as the last boiler picture. If you could first remove the blue plastic bucket hanging on that tank and get some side shots around the boiler. Somewhere in the basement must be a hot water heater, pictures of that would be good also. Also a few sample pictures of the typical radiators in the buildings. Pictures of all the thermostats you might have.

Where at in MN?