question on return trap & air vent

moneypitfeeder

Hello, I have an older 2-pipe steam system that's giving me grief. It sounds like there is whooshing water in the pipes (which was confirmed by cracking the fitting to a return trap and water spewing out). Most of the system is working fine, but I have one rad that I can't get hot all the way across. So I replaced its trap with a cage unit, did not fix it, but I was then able to get heat to the supply valve. (was not able to before). Then I thought it might be the next rad on that branch having a failed trap. I shut that rad off completely and still no heat. I have turned off all the rads off that main branch, and still no heat. Last fall I had a steam repair guy here for a different issue, and had asked him about a large return trap and a separate air trap located close to the boiler. He told me he'd never seen one, and that its probably just been abandoned in place. He's also the same guy that burned out my thermostat by mis-wiring a control unit to my boiler. The more I've been reading in Dan's books and this site suggests that that return trap and air vent are important to the system, the trap has a sight glass that has absolutely no water in it, and there is not any flow in or out of the air vent (by holding a flame next to the opening). So, is there any way to tell if this thing is working? And if I need to get new guts for it, how do I figure out what to get, it has no numbers on it for reference. Or am I just jumping down the wrong rabbit hole? Thanks Guys!

moneypitfeeder

Additional info

The return trap is a Jas. P. Marsh, and is probably circa 1920 is that the same company as http://www.marsh-steam.com/

Thanks again.

clammy

Whoa momma

I think you need to find a real steam guy .Do you think you an post a picture a little bit futher away to show more of your boiler near boiler piping.As much as i can see from your picture your boiler seems to be completly piped wrong i see no common header ,equilizer nor hartford loop may be it's your picture not showing  it but it seems your near boiler piping may not be correct .If the installer left you the installation and operation manual for the boiler (which he should have) right there will show the proper way to pipe the boiler and near boiler piping .On another note that system was most likely a vapor system and you should have  vaporststat instead of a pressuretroll.But if you feel the piping is a OK please check the manual i do not think it is from your photos .If the installer did not know what the boiler return trap and alos burnt up your thermostat i truely don't think he should be working on your system least of all don't let him rip it out you will regrete it for sure .On another note what is the smaller 3/4 steel pipe piped into the top of the boiler for it has me wondering ?I have been doing this for like over 20 years and the supply piping is not correct get some body who know what they are doing cause that guy don,t! peace and good luck clammy

moneypitfeeder

the pipe on top of the boiler

The pipe on the top of the boiler is coming from the return lines, and the main water supply is piped to the left of the boiler, I'll try and get some better photo's. BTW the installer of this system wasn't the guy that burnt my thermostat. I didn't find out till a few months after that incident who actually installed this. (I've only owned the home for 1.5 yrs). You are correct there is no header, the pipes come out of the boiler and directly up to the mains. They are 44" above the waterline. The boiler is a utica peg 187, and no I don't think it's piped correctly, it doesn't look like the manual shows, and my returns are way different with the large return trap and air trap, and all the associated piping to it.

moneypitfeeder

Okay, near boiler piping stinks...

Okay, near boiler piping stinks...(and once summer hits that will be first on my list to resolve), but can you see a proper hartford loop in this system, its confusing to me because there is a wet and a dry return piped to the boiler. And should I be keeping and repairing the old Marsh return/air trap. Maybe as a note I should include that the first time we fired this system up after purchasing the house that due to a manual feed valve leaking we had water that filled the entire system from the basement up 3 stories, and was venting out a rad vent located on the only 1 pipe rad in the house (in the attic). I actually want to know the process behind the piping, and why this system does or does not work. Thanks.

Steamhead

This is what the near-boiler piping should look like

the only difference is the header should be 2-1/2" on yours, since it's bigger. 

moneypitfeeder

Thanks for the pics

Now I can better understand how the it should look. Any thoughts on the return vent?

Steamhead

We've seen

some of these vents that have stuck shut. If there's a union in the piping to the vent, loosen it and see if air comes out when the boiler is making steam. If it does, the vent is not venting.



One or two Gorton #2 vents can be used as replacements.

moneypitfeeder

Maybe tomorrow..

Apparently I don't have enough "umph" to open the union. (and our torch is out of gas). I guess I'll have to wait till my better half gets home tomorrow and see if he can break the darn thing. My house flooded in 72, so not only are all the connections old, but most are rusted beyond belief. I found old caked mud under a door lock faceplate on the second floor! Thanks again for the info.

moneypitfeeder

found a bigger pipe wrench

Okay, I got tired of waiting, and was able to get the union on the outlet side of the air vent (the upper can) just above the 90* ell, and cold very rusty water and air spewed out. Is that type of vent even supposed to have water in it? There seemed to be no end to the flow, I got a half a med. size bucket before I gave up and tightened the union back up.

clammy

Things to check

Besides the air vent .I would take a look at below the return trap where your wet return and the discharge from the return trap  tie together near the floor.I could not really see if there where 2 check valves  .I would take them apart and make sure they are working properly  they could be logged with mud not letting the trap discharge into the boiler.On another note i would also get rid of That pa404 pressuretroll and get a honeywell vaporstat instead most older 2 pipe systems where vapor and with that pa4040 you are running to high a pressure which may cause water stacking to high in the returns .Also being this was just replaced what type of boiler (age) was the older one and water was the water level height in omparsion to the new boiler.A boiler with a much lower water line then the original water line can cause all types of issues some of which can be flooding ,ineffecient steam distrubition and issue with returning condensate .Sorry i did not repost quicker.I would check some of thereturn piping for blockage and the boiler water height also .peace and good luck clammy

moneypitfeeder

You'll love this,

Ok the near boiler piping is definitely getting fixed this summer, but at least we finally got heat to the cold rad. The pipe going to the top of the boiler was a take off from on top of the dry return piping. For the boiler to blow off high pressure it would have had to fill every return. The return trap on the cold rad had water that was bubbling up the return (there was water everywhere, so it was hard to tell where it was coming from.) Once we disconnected and capped that line, and put a pipe leg towards the floor from the pressure relief, the cold rad got hot all the way across, and the boiler water started behaving better. Thank you all for the advice!