Gurgling Continues / Pressure Reading "0"

ST140

Hey everyone. My amazing steam heat saga continues...



My last post I touched on a gurgling noise inside my first floor radiators. For reference, that post was here: <a href="http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/134408/Short-Cycling-on-Pressure-Downfire-Air-Vents">http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/134408/Short-Cycling-on-Pressure-Downfire-Air-Vents</a>



That post started out about short cycling and turned into a post on Gurgling, that's why I'm starting this new post. The short cycling has stopped, but the gurgling continues.



Anyways, after installing a Gorton G2 on each main, and skimming the boiler again (which was more satisfying this time around - sort of black for the first minute or so), I was excited to see if this fixed the gurgling problem. Much to my dismay it did not...



OK, so I have some gurgling. My next thought was to install my Wika 0-3 psi gauge that came in the mail Friday, and see what's happening with the pressure in the system, just for kicks I thought...



WELL. Here's the kicker. When my new MegaSteam was installed 2 weeks ago, the 0-30 gauge always registered "0", but based on what I've read here, that's kind of a non issue because they're prone to breaking, and aren't very accurate at low pressure - hence the Wika gauge. BUT, now that I've installed the 0-3 psi gauge, this one is also registering "0". ****!



My assumption is as follows, PLEASE COMMENT.



The pigtail is plugged, so the pressuretrol never shuts the system off, the pressure builds and sucks water into my system. This is also why the new 0-3 gauge reads "0".

My setup is a horizontal nipple coming off the boiler to an elbow. Brass pigtail in the elbow. T at the top of the pigtail w/ Pressuretrol and 0-3 gauge on either side, sort of like BobC's setup which has been posted on here numerous times.



What do you think, am I way off with my assumption? I'm currently waiting for the boiler to cool down to take it apart and see...

BobC

You never know

To have a pigtail clog on a new boiler is pretty uncommon but that doesn't say it can't happen. Is the 0-30 gauge on the pigtail or someplace else on the boiler? If the 0-30 gauge is not on the pigtail and it is reading zero I'll bet the pigtail isn't plugged.



To check the pigtail shut off the circuit breaker that powers the

boiler, unwire the pressuretrol and then twist it off. Once it's off see

if you can blow into that open pipe. you said you had a union installed so you can just undo that and perform the same test to make sure the pigtail is clean. There should be some resistance

but you should be able to blow into the boiler to confirm the pigtail is

clear. If that pigtail is blocked you will have to remove it and try to

clear it.



Ouside of the gurgling how does the system perform? When the boiler is just maintaining temperature, not revering from a setback or increase on the thermostat, how long does the boiler fire for? Are all the air vents shutting after they sense the steam, especially the main vents?



Bob



Bob

Rod

Wet Steam

Hi-  Are you sure you're making steam? While anything is possible, it's rather hard to believe a 2 week old boiler would have a plugged pigtail. How's your gauge glass, is there moisture inside?  This would indicate that you are still producing wet steam and a need to do more skimming. Really wet steam can cause any steam produced to immediate condense. Also was the burner checked with instrumentation when the boiler was installed?

- Rod

ST140

Update.

Bob - My Gorton G2's close up when steam gets to them. My radiator vents for the most part whistle on and off...



Rod - YES, gauge glass is "moist" for sure, and water level surges up and down probably 1-2 inches... It looks relatively clear though.



To update - I pulled off the pigtail and the horizontal nipple coming off the boiler. Ran water through everything and blew on them. Some black crud came out of the horizontal nipple... Put everything back together and fired it back up. For about 10 minutes I thought it didn't fix the problem, but then slowly but surely, the gauge slowly worked it's way up to about 0.3 psi. Great, so that solved that problem, but low and behold, I get back upstairs and the radiators are whooshing and gurgling like crazy. At 0.3 psi? What the heck! I measure from the waterline to the header is 24" (no dropped header). More and more this just seems like I need to downfire the MST-513. What do you think? Is the boiler just making more steam than my radiators can condense. A while back I calculated my EDR as being 415. -Steve

ST140

Update #2

Although my pressuretrol is set at Main 1.5 and subtractive diff at 1.0, I just watched pressure climb to 2 psi before it shutoff. At the same time, the water level was almost at the bottom of the site glass. The gauge got to 2.0 psi, the system shutoff, and then about a minute later, the automatic water feeder kicked on until the site glass was half full. Any ideas? It's Sunday night and this has been driving me nuts all weekend! I'm not even sure the pressuretrol turned the system off, maybe it was the LWCO seeing as how the water feeder turned on...

ST140

Burner

Rod,

Actually, the other day the installer came back to use their combustion analyzer on the system. Tonight I noted a small hole that had been drilled in the flue pipe, so I think that means they did what they said. I posted earlier last week about a thumping noise that was shaking my house. They came and replaced the nozzle, and at that time ran the combustion analyzer. The boiler/burner was originally hacked in by the original installer that I ended up firing. The new guys upon finishing the job initially mentioned for me to keep an eye on things because they weren't sure what still may have been messed up. The first shmuck apparently forgot to put one of the burner door bolts in and you could actually stand next to the boiler and look in to see the flame. What a moron... don't get me started...

World Plumber

skiming

If it's surging and you think there might be some oil it it. Try adding some washing soda, over fill the boiler till the water enter the header and run the boiler till it starts to boil, don't let it steam then do your regular steam. You can down load a peerless manual for instructions. I was amazed at the black crud that came out of a boiler that was skimmed via the normal mode and the water was clear.

      Is your Hartford loop right so the water doesn't push back? How many feet of pipe do you have full of water?  How close is the lowest part of your main to the water level?

Rod

Keep Skimming

With the wet glass and bouncing waterline it sounds to me like you need to skim, skim, skim. I skimmed each Saturday morning for about 5 consecutive Saturdays on my boiler originally. Clear water isn't a sure indicator as oil is clear too. If the guy wasn't very competent he may have not cleaned the pipe before he installed it. You always have to skim due to pipe compound, oils etc. but if you don't wipe down the threads and the interior /exterior of the pipe to get rid of oil this really adds to the problem.



If regular skimming doesn't seem to work here's some links that might be of help to you.

- Rod

1. Link on Heating Help- discussing different additives for skimming. http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/125392/Using-Cascade-dishwashing-liquid-to-clean-boiler-before-draining



2. Rhomar Water - I’ve used their products (9150 & 903) and have been very satisfied with them.

    http://www.rhomarwater.com/products/residential-steam-system/



Here’s a link to the data sheet on 9150

http://www.rhomarwater.com/media/W-9150.pdf



Link to comments on 9150 on Heating Help Website

http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/100691/Running-boiler-with-Rhomar-Hydrosolv-9150

ST140

Clarify?

World can you clarify what you mean exactly when you say "Is your Hartford loop right so the water doesn't push back? How many feet of pipe do you have full of water?"



The lowest part of the main (dry return?) is 32" above the water line, the lowest supply main is 36" above the water line. From what I can tell, the hartford loop is 2" below the water line... What do you mean by how many feet of pipe do I have full of water?



The strangest thing is that the old boiler never had any of these problems and that thing was completely installed wrong...

ST140

Additives.

Thanks Rod. Ugh, 5 Saturdays? Well... looks like I'm heading there! Did you mean that after 5 Saturdays it was finally "clear" for real? Or did you have to resort to using the additives? If I have to go that route, I'm sure I'll have to post again... Everybody says to be patient with steam, and I'm trying to be! Just hoping that these issues don't raise long term problems...

World Plumber

Water

You need enough water in you wet return to prevent the boiler pressure from pushing the water out of the boiler. I have seen some instances were they only have about 3 feet under water but added a check-valve. If you Hartford loop is too low that will let water push back if there isn't a lot of water in the wet return or an equalizer coming in behind it.

   Try locating a Peerless installation manual and follow their skimming methods. I think you'll be surprised at what comes out of your boiler.

jpf321

not as i understand it ..

simple fluid physics suggests that you don't need a certain volume of water to keep the water in your boiler .. rather, you need height and gravity. Also known as the A Dimension. 1psi will raise the water on the return side 28inches above NWL. you need a stack of water 28inches above NWL to keep the water in the boiler at 1psi .. you need 29inches+ to get the water back INTO the boiler .. Dan covers "The A Dimension" in great detail in TLAOSH.



as well, you don't *need* your Hartford to be 2inches below waterline .. in fact, if you raise it 1/2" ABOVE NWL, you now have a Gifford loop (http://is.gd/IkZkE4) as well as the meager beginnings of a false waterline. all the I&O manuals say 2inches below, but I haven't found a good reason for why that measurement came into vogue.



if you hartford is lower than 2" it does NOT affect the water staying in the boiler due to pressure, only the amount of water that will stay in the boiler if someone cuts the wet return in half and floods the basement. as was discussed in great detail recently (http://is.gd/jKLdRW)  .. the hartford loop and it's height simply "buys time" to shut off the fire but has absolutely no effect on the boiler operation under pressure or not.



going back to why the 2" came into vogue .. it is likely measured as the "safe minimum water level" .. hopefully by this point, your LWCO has shut off the fire .. if not, then the water will continue to leave the boiler out the top end as steam and the hartford becomes simply a few extra fittings that few people understand rather than any useful safety device. yes the Hartford is in the manuals and perhaps more importantly, looked for by inspectors, and is a competency gauge wallies can use to critique an install,  but it certainly doesn't affect boiler operation.



simply put, any pipe which is underwater is underwater, period. whether it has an official name or not, it's just underwater and has no affect on the operation or performance of the boiler. raising a pipe above water such as in the case of a gifford loop, simply decouples the water on both sides of the above-water pipe. in the case of an above water pipe, water must climb (thus the concept of making a false waterline) to get to the above water pipe and then drop down to the other side.



laslty, there are no good reasons that I know of for a check valve on a wet return in a properly installed and well functioning system.. probably a check valve was added b/c someone turned up the pressure greater than 2psi and cause the water to stack into the mains with a short A Dim. and bang like crazy.

jpf321

regarding the gurgle...

in the school (http://is.gd/R8Q24b) where i've been the last few days .. they have a few rads that gurgle or sound like an ocean .. as far as I can tell, they are just doing their thing .. they are 2-column true-steam rads .. and I have limited experience around them. but one thing about them is that the steam MUST run across the bottom to get in .. they are not connected across the top. they don't bang, and they heat up nicely, but into a cold rad, they are certainly swooshy .. once they fill and the vent closes, they are completely quieted. if you experiencing this with true-steam rads, then they may be performing properly until someone says otherwise about my theory regarding true-steam rads. perhaps this swoosh would quiet with slower venting.



if they are tube-type-HW/Steam Rads .. then it may be something else entirely. steam entry speed is probably the biggest culprit .. slow down the venting and the rad will probably quiet... otherwise, you have to consider the diameter of the supply pipe, rad valve, pitch, reducing bushing, etc. to determine if you are constricting the steam/water space ratio in the opening.

ST140

Radiators.

Well, I definitely have wet steam, that's for sure.  The radiator vents are filling up with water, the site glass water is surging, etc. 

But since you asked...  Not sure exacty what you mean by "true steam" column radiators, but below is a picture of the ones we have that are making the noise downstairs.  We also have these upstairs, but those aren't making any noise.

I'm intrigued by the "Washing Soda" reference, but does anybody have any experience doing this in a MegaSteam?  I don't think my skim port is in the same location recommended by Peerless boilers.  Also, and this is where I really get confused, how do you boil the water, but not make steam?  How do I know what it's doing in there?

Charlie from wmass

skim it more.

What is the header size called for in the manual?

jzsmith

gurgling rads and pipes

on your new boiler is the header tilted slightly down hill toward the wet return? I beleive the megasteamer calls for a 2 in header is the header piped in 2 in black iron pipe? is the does the pigtail have water in it

could you post close up pictures of the near boiler piping supply and return

Charlie from wmass

He has photos in his other post

Check the pigtail again.

World Plumber

Boil

When your by the boiler you can hear the water start to boil. It's a little harder to hear with an oil burner running. But with the water up in the pipe if you run it till the pipe is too hot to touch then shut the burner down. But be careful if it starts to build steam pressure the super hot water is going to be under pressure.

ST140

Header Size

The burnham installation manual recommended installing 2" risers and headers for the MST-513. The MST-629 bumps up to 2.5".

ST140

Boil but not steam.

So as I understand it, it's not an exact science? You just have to listen for it?

World Plumber

Hot Hot Hot

You want the water hot to get the oil out, but you don't want steam so that your getting scalded and laying in a Hospital ward someplace on Morphine. When water starts to boil it usually makes some noise. Boils some water in a tea kettle to get the idea. Bring your boiler up to a s close to a boil as you can get with the water up into the risers. If you think it built steam pressure let sit a minute or so before you open the skim port then skim. You have to keep the water hot to get a good skim.

ST140

Rhomar

Hi Rod - I'm in Massachusetts, do you have any idea where I can get the Rhomar 9150? Can it be ordered online somewhere? Just wondering. I've been hot skimming and draining/filling for the past 4 days and I've had no luck so far. I think there's just a lot of "gunk" being stirred loose in the old pipes by the MegaSteam... All my radiator and main vents keep clogging up with water, and I've about had enough of this... Will continue to skim and drain, etc. until the Rhomar gets here and I'll use that as a last resort. Thanks!

crash2009

True Steam Radiator

The photo below is of what I perceive to be a "true steam" radiator.  This steam stuff sure burns your hands a lot, I think mine are getting used to it.  I wanted to know how the steam gets from the shut-off valve to the radiator vent, specifically "what path does it take".  So I did the burn your hands method.  I made sure the boiler was running, then went upstars, and started massaging the radiator.  I started at the air vent and felt the radiator thoroughly, every square inch until I felt heat. 

The results of my test are displayed below.  The steam starts at the inlet valve then goes straight up the center colum.  When it gets to the top it splits, and goes down the 2 outer colums.  Continuing on, once it gets back to the bottom again, it goes through a passage at the bottom of the radiator, and then into the second colum to repeat the same route in the 2nd and remaining colums. 

If you get a chance, look up JPF's thermal imiging photos for a real look inside a radiator.

I have never tested a combo steam/water radiator, but I think they have a passage at the top and the bottom.  I think the steam would take a slightly different route.

Dave in QCA

Re:True Steam Radiator

Crash, I figured I was the only steam nut that spent time "massaging" his radiators!  But, I agree with your observations completely.

In addition, I have noticed that if the boiler is oversized and the steam is entering the radiator fast, it may bypass the first section or 2, and the second or 3rd section will be the first to heat, with the first two sections beginning to warm about the same time as the adjacent sections on the other side of the section that heats the first.

I have a mixture of a Steam Only radiators and hot water type radiators in my system.  Some of both were original, and some are the result of replacements.  The heating pattern is somewhat similar, except that the steam also moves across the top faster than it moves across the bottom of the radiator. 

I have crudely marked up a radiator to show the pattern.

ST140

More advice?

Hi everybody - I just wanted to get your input a little more on this one. It's been another week, I've been skimming almost every other day since the last time I posted, and unfortunately I'm still getting the gurgling and whooshing in the radiators... Water is not exactly 100% clear yet but it's getting there. Should I keep skimming, skimming, skimming, until the water is consistently 100% clear? The water seems to be clear, and then after a couple of heating cycles, the "gunk" seems to be coming back. I assume most of it is from the old pipes (100+ yr. old house) and radiators throughout the house. I have Rhomar's contact info if I want to go that route... The main symptom here is the annoying gurgling/whooshing noise the radiators are making, and the fact that all of my rad. vents and main vents are filling up with water... Does it 100% absolutely make sense to still wait it out until the water is consistently clear so that I can eliminate that as the culprit? I know I need to insulate the pipes a little more (asbestos on 85% of exposed basement piping, nothing on the other 15%), but I can't help but going back to the thought that the boiler is still oversized, and probably needs to be downfired... calculated EDR is 415, boiler is rated at 513. I attached my near boiler piping pics to this post, so you don't have to go back to my old posts in case you were curious. Let me know what you think. As always, thanks!

World Plumber

hot

When your skimimg are you bring the boiler up to a boil? Or just using cold water?

jzsmith1965

gurgiling continues

I have been following this thread and have a question how did the installer come up with the edr and what does he say about it ?

ST140

Both.

Since the boiler was installed 3 weeks ago, I have:



1. Cold Skimmed (Twice) - boiler cold and off for at least 3 hours, let water trickle for 4 hours.

2. Hot Skimmed (Four Times) - boiler made steam, shut it off, waited 20 minutes, water hot when it came out, let it trickle for 2-3 hours.

3. Drain / Refill (Three times following 2-3 hour hot skims) - from mudleg and from bottom of boiler until nothing else came out.... Slowly refilled to water line.

ST140

EDR / Installer

Here are my calcs from EDR, which were verified by my first installer I ended up firing... Long story... Anyways, here is my previous post w/calcs: http://72.3.142.104/forum-thread/133822/EDR-calcs-for-new-Boiler-Old-One-Too-Small#p1212639



The company that came and saved us after we didn't have heat for 4 days was by no means a company that specialized in steam, but from what I can tell, they just followed the installation diagram in the Burnham installation instructions.



I figured out I do not have an isolation valve in the hartford loop (?) which is the only part of the piping they saved from the first installer. Everything else they redid. I guess that means I can't "blow out" the dry returns?

World Plumber

Skiming

Where are you taking the water from? It needs to be the top of the boiler and an open straight pipe so the oil/ sludge doesn't get stuck in elbows etc.

Have you noticed any improvement at all? I would try the washing soda with the boiler filed up into the risers to grt as much oil out as you can. The piping doesn't look like you should have any problems from it. Do you have the pressure down as low as you can get it? How long does the boiler run before it goes off on pressure?  If there is oil in the water you will see it jumping around in the sight glass the level will go up and down by inchs at a time. When everything is right it should sit steady.

ST140

Skim Port

World - there is a skim port I setup with a 1" nipple and ball valve above the normal water line on the back of the boiler (bushed down from 1.5"). I have to raise the water level slightly to get it to trickle out. I wish I could say that I noticed improvement, and at first I thought I did, but that was just me wanting to hear it, not actually hearing improvement. I have the pressuretrol set at main 1.5, diff (subtractive) at 1. I installed a WIKA 0-3 psi gauge from gaugestore.com (for now) off the same pigtail as the pressuretrol. The system makes steam, and takes a while to build up any noticeable pressure, most of it being the "back pressure" or whatever it's called once the steam starts condensing. I actually haven't noticed it shut off on pressure since the burner was reconfigured (original nozzle that was butchered by first installer was gunked and replaced). System was tested w/combustion analyzer, etc. since then... I guess my other "symptom" would be the auto-water feed turning on to add water to the system before the steam has had a chance to condense and return to the boiler. This has happened a few times when the system is coming off my 3 degree setback.

john21

gurgiling continues

so why did you not have a dropped header installed ? why is skim port bushed down to 1 in have you added tsp to boiler to skim you need to add tsp bring water level to just below skim port then turn on boiler let it heat to just before it makes steam you will know when that happens because water will start coming out of skim port make sure skim port is open and running into a bucket hopefully there is a sump pump or drain in basement

World Plumber

Skimport

The skim port needs to be at the top of the boiler with NO obstructions, ie; bushings, reducers, valves must be full port. Otherwise the oil will catch on the bushing and stay in the boiler. When your skimming the water should be1/2 pipe level coming out. Don't leave the boiler sit 20 minutes. If you keep the port open and run the boiler turning it off as soon as the water coming out starts to sputter then fire it back up in a couple of minutes it should loosen most of the oil. At this point I would try the Peerless method. It's been once and done the times I used it.

Try skimming it with an 1-1/2 open nipple then cap or plug the opening and see what happens. PS: turn the pressuretrol to it's lowest settings. (.5) (1/2) with a (1) differential

ST140

Bushing...

World, any suggestion for getting the bushing out easily?  It's buried "into" the jacket and I won't be able to get at it with a pipe wrench.  Any other method you can think of?  I'll go with a straight nipple and pipe plug if that makes more sense.  Let me know if you have any ideas.  Thanks again.

World Plumber

Socket

Me I would go to my tool box and pull out a socket either 3/4 or inch drive to fit. For you it's probably cheaper to go to the grocery store and get a box of Arm and Hammer washing soda. Mix a cup full with some water pour it into the boiler. Fill the boiler up so the water is above the top of the boiler run the boiler to get it to the boiling point shut it down and open your valve and proceed with skimming once the water gets down to that level. Keep firing the boiler on and off to keep the water hot till it runs clear. I'm quit certain you'll get a lot of globs of oil and black gunk. Bigger pipes work better for skimming, but a little detergent with what you have should get the job done.

steamer7676

skimming

it sounds like you need to keep skimming. have you tried to take some water samples and boiling them to see if you get foaming water . i use a pint glass and fill it about 3/4 of the way full and put in the microwave and watch it if there is oil/contaminates in water it will foam violently . usually only happens for a few seconds if it foams you need to keep skimming just be care full glass is very hot use gloves and towel to remove glass . i take samples from skim port raise water line up a little to do this because oil will be on top of water just make sure there isn't any steam in system. near boiler piping looked OK from pics but those are just pics. sounds like you have a hard time building a head of steam because its to wet and already gave up its latent heat. I would try water test and keep skimming if needed. i would only try down firing if really needed. i have also used squick boiler treatment it works good but is no substitute for  good skimming. I have a system now that i have skimmed 5 times for 5 to 6 hours at a time and still needs more. I'v had other that just need one skim and be OK . just my 2 cents hope it helps

World Plumber

Squick

Squick is a good product. I absorbs the oil and caries it to the bottom of the boiler and help to dry steam.

    If it were my boiler I would use the Arm and Hammer washing soda or TSP product, skim, flush the boiler then add the Squick.

World Plumber

Squick

Squick is a good product. I absorbs the oil and caries it to the bottom of the boiler and help to dry steam.

    If it were my boiler I would use the Arm and Hammer washing soda or TSP product, skim, flush the boiler then add the Squick.

ST140

Washing Soda

OK, so I went and picked up some A&H Super Washing Soda last night. Before I get started, I had some questions regarding the process:



1. Where do I pour in the Washing Soda/water mixture? Do I need to remove the blow off valve and dump it in there w/a funnel?



2. Do I put the blow off valve back in place before "overfilling" the boiler? Or do I plug the opening?



3. I assume I keep the skim valve closed during the "Boil" phase, right?



4. Do I drain the boiler slightly to get the water level back down to my skimming port before I open the skim port?



5. Once I open the skim port, I understand that I need to slowly add fresh water in w/the manual feed valve which will push the dirty water out the skim port. So with the skim port open, and the water trickling, is this when I should be checking water temp on the water trickling out?



6. If the water temp drops below 180, is this when I fire the boiler up again to keep the temp around 180? Do I keep the skim valve open with the boiler running?



I just want to be straight on these details first so that i don't leave any gunk behind. It seems like there is a lot of info out there, just never the details for capable people do it the right way. I've been thinking that a lot of people probably try these things, but I'm sure a lot of the time they're not doing them the right way (myself included).



Thanks everybody!

World Plumber

Wash

1.)Pour it in the easiest opening. The relief valve is usually the easiest.

2.)I would put the valve back for safety.

3.) I drain off through the skim port to get the gunk so it doesn't stick to the side if you drain too much.

4.)With the water trickling watch the temp gauge and keep the temp above 180 or close to that if you can. After the water runs clear I drained the boiler and refilled it.

I was taught to keep the water flow about half the skim pipe no more so the oil doesn't stick on the sides of the opening. No hoses or elbows leave the water fall into a bucket or drain.  PS: with the boiler overfull you may have to turn the pressuretrol up to 1 or 2 to get it to fire then turn it back to (.5) after you start draining the water.



BE VERY CAREFUL OPENING THE SKIM VALVE!!!! Try to stand behind it so you don't get splashed. We don't want to hear your in the burn center.