Viessmann Boiler

Harvey_2

Am looking for input about the new 100 and 200 series of Viessmann mod-con boilers. A distributor in our area has just taken on the product. Any advise?  THANKS

Robert O'Brien

I have

done 2 of the Vitodens 100 WB1 and zero problems or complaints

scott markle_2

good boilers

Very good equipment, the build is a bit lighter than the original 200 series, but the price is more competitive.



The 100 is a very affordable boiler, with a very simple (dial adjust) reset curve and TT contacts. Wish it incorporated a relay for a DHW circ. and tank sensor like the MCBA controller on the triangle tube.



The new 200 has combustion self calibration and can run on natural or propane without an orifice change, allows for optimum combustion even with changing fuel quality, use of biogass etc.

Viess

Viessmann Vitodens WB2B

I had the above boiler installed about one and a half months ago. What I like about the system besides the overall quality of the materials used to make it. Is the even heating because it's a constant flow setup. Only when the outdoor temp sensor and boiler control determine that the temp differential is about 2 degrees apart does it shut down the primary and secondary circulating pumps. Except of course when the DHW is set as priority. I used roughly one third less fuel last month. If you the home owner have any questions the Viessmann reps back east are more than willing to help out. If you pick an installer that's never installed a Viessmann Vitodens make sure they call the east coast rep and talk to an engineer before they bid it. Most all installers will rig it for demand heat. That's not how to do it. Happy Holidays! 

joel_19

V

We have installed these for years did 5 last month. They are the best modcon IMHO.  We won't sell anything with the aluminum HX so that limits our choices right off the bat. we do like the TT Prestige as well we sell the V oil boiler there is no substitute for the oil boiler.

CMadatMe

Vitodens

Harvey I have sold 50 plus of the new Vitodens since they came out in July. Not one problem what so ever. My biggest advice is to pick a boiler that meets the application and make sure you do a heat loss.



The Vitodens 100 is the basic boiler in the line. It is avail in 2 sizes 37,000 to 91,000 and 37,000 to 119,00. Concerning Scotts post on domestic hot water. The boiler does have a spot for DHW on the control and the boiler will automatically shut down the RT (Thermostat) terminals and go into high fire for domestic. You can use a Taco EXP version zone control and the PC 600 Card. It's really simple. Attached you can find 2 piping diargrams that I did for zoning with zone valves with a wiring explination. The drawing are conceptual but should give you a basic idea and understanding.



The Vitodens 200 in my mind is the best mod/con out there. There is alot of flexability in the boilers control but can be alittle overwhelming. It is avail in the same sizes as the Vitodens 100 and goes up to 370,000 btus. If you decided on the 200 series I would strongly encourage you to get the Vitotrol 300 remote control, It will give you indoor temp feedback and control of you system without having to go to the mechanical room.



I can't stress the importance of doing a heat loss, breaking it down by zones and calculate emmitter btu output based on flow rate.  No matter whos mod/con you choose. You really want to get a heating curve as low as possbile so you can take the full advantage of the boiler. I have a house that I designed with one of my contractors. It's his own house. It's all baseboard..The coldest it has gotten here is about 7. The max water temp this boiler has seen has been 130. A good design goes a long way.

SpeyFitter

Vitodens is good but..

Yes, the new Vitodens 100 & 200 are sweet boilesr but there are still boilers out there that are every bit as good in my opinion.  And yes I'm talking about from a quality of construction point of view (e.g materials, build quality) but also from a features point of view.

CMadatMe

I agree

With you Scott to a point. There are many nice mod cons out there. That's why I stated in my post, "Not matter who's mod con you choose." I will say from a system approach no other mod con has a control platform on the same playing field as the Vitodens 200 in my opinion. While Viessmann is always my first choice in a mod con I think Triangle has a nice little boiler in the Prestige and this would be my second choice of boiler.

SpeyFitter

Have you looked at IBC?

IBC has a very nice control platform to work with. Their digital display readout bar none is better than pretty much any other boiler on this planet for control, display of various temperatures, fan speeds, etc.. They have 3 secondary temperature load switching/control right out of the box, and it's extremely easy to set up.  Also, a 316 Ti heat exchanger that is downfiring (no chlorides to leech on the HE) with an external condensate trap and pretty much the most flexible venting on this planet as well with 120 feet on the 15-150 and 240 feet (per side) on the 45-225.  Their boiler is also has 3 rows of heat exchanger coils for the largest condensing heat exchanger per boiler on this planet so you don't see the efficiency drop off at higher firing rates. I'll give you an example of where this is important. I did a flue gas analysis of a IBC 45-225 recently. With 110 out I was getting 95.3% at 225,000 BTUH. At 110 out I was getting 95.3% out at 45,000 BTUH. This is not an advertisement, these are the facts. These boilers are growing a serious following by contractors who start using them. There is a reason for that. But they do carry a premium price tag right up there with a Vitodens 200.  Also - I do not work for IBC, but the company I work for installs a lot of them, and I've serviced quite a few.   Attached is a picture of one I did at Leed platinum building just over a year ago. Here is two 45-225's that serve as back up heat for the geo system and primary heat for the indirect fired HWT's and a fan coil unit (the one on the right which has a third set of secondary tees). The boilers normally have S/S covers but they have the protection film on them right now obviously b/c this a construction site still.

CMadatMe

I took a Look

I just grazed through the installation manual. Seems like a nice little boiler. You statements on the venting though are a little over exagerated. The smaller boiler venting distance much less than you state.  The other item I found is that you cannot hybrid vent the boiler. Fresh and and vent must be from the same side. I'd have to say that Viessmann has them beat in the venting area. I can go out to 115 feet on 2". The only thing I didn't like is that they only make 2 boilers and for the average home in my market these would be oversized. I 'd like to get some more information on the control. From the wiring diagram in the manual I can't really see where they have their own modulating valves. How about indoor feedback? I didn't really see any type of indoor control either. If you have more info on the boiler other than what is on the web site I'd like to check it out. The other feature I really didn't like was that you have to gain access to the heat exchanger from the top. I also picked up on the fact that the boiler does have some clearance to combustabile issues also. All in all its a decent mod/con

Viess

Vitotrol 300 remote control?

Chris, by having the Vitotrol 300 remote control does that make the unit run more efficiently? How does the indoor temp taken by the remote influence the operation of the boiler? Or is the remote just for turning the temp up or down without having to going to the boiler room? My WB2B is in the garage where I  keep the temp at 50. I have 3 zones and the garage is a demand zone valve setup. The other two zones are continuous flow. The boiler uses the outdoor reset and I set the appropriate slope and shift curve to regulate the house temperature I want. I don't mind going to the garage  once and awhile to adjust it but if by having the remote makes the boiler run more efficient, them I'm all for it. Thoughts? Viess.

CMadatMe

Vitotrol

The control will give you indoor temp feedback for 1 heating circut. Yes it does have influence in how the control processes the heating curve. The boiler will look at both the outdoor sensor and the indoor feedback and run the appropriate heating curver to satifies the demand (temp) set on the Vitotrol.  Temperature setpoint (therm setting) has an influence. The the boiler will continually change the water temp. Say it's running for a room setpoint of 70. The boiler is running 105 degree water that day. The wife decideds shes a little chilly so bumps it up to 72. The boiler will increase it's heating curve. Same goes the other way. Here is some info attached.

SpeyFitter

IBC merits & disadvantages

The IBC VFC 15-150 (smaller boiler) vents up to 120 feet (5' per elbow) with 3" pipe (up to 50 feet with 2" pipe, 70 feet with 2 1/2"). That is 120 feet for the exhaust and 120 feet for the intake, on 3" pipe and you can not add pipe or subtract pipe from the intake or exhaust and add it to each other.

Can you elaborate when you say "hybrid" venting? You can pull inside air if you want and IBC has also just come out with an air filter for their boilers as well. You can also pull air from the roof and exhaust through the side if you want, or vice versa. I think their venting is pretty flexible if you ask me...

So does Viessmann have a boiler that puts out 150,000 or more BTUH's that can run 115 feet on 2" exhaust vent?  Also, Viessmann doesn't mind the potential for chlorides leeching back onto the heat exchanger from installers who choose to use PVC or CPVC??

They do have a sensor connection for indoor feedback, but I can't speak to you of the indoor control, only to say the indoor feedback will adjust modulation curves with respect to outdoor temperature and desired setpoint.

Like all mod-con comparisons you really need to see them up close, and as you stated their are some vices for every boiler. The heat exchanger access from the top is a good and a bad thing.  Bad because I often need to stand on a ladder to look down and clean it, but good because the heat exchanger is downfiring which helps maintain cleanliness as the condensate can help wash the heat exchanger a little more than most other boilers.

There is no perfect mod-con boiler out there, and not every boiler works in every installation well. The key for me is quality components, and good product support, as well as ease of installation. The IBC meets all of those for me personally, so much so, that I don't really look at Viessmann's much, other then I wonder why they can't come out with a higher modulation range like MOST of the competetion, and why they can't keep my name on file to attend their academy sessions,  and contact me when I have a spot, yet apparently I just have to wait until their academy dates come out and then send in a form.

I will tell you this - IBC HAS ruffled Viessmann's feathers. And I say this not in the interests of creating competition, but with the idea that many contractors are slowly, quietly, jumping on the IBC bandwagon for their installs for many, many reasons. I invite you to see one up close if you are ever at a trade show where they have one on display.

CMadatMe

I'll keep a lookout

On the next round of trade shows. The WB2B-35 (31-126 btu) can vent out to 115' combined length. The WB2B-45 (60-160 btu) and WB2B-60 (60-212 btu) upto 98' with 3" and 148' with 4". The WB2B 80 (104-285) and the WB2B-105 (104-370) 131' on 4".



Your right on track with what I meant by hybrid venting. I didn't see anywhere in the IBC manual that was on their web site where you could take fresh air horizontally and exhaust vertically nor did I see where you could use combustion air from the mechnical room. Maybe the manual there is old and not up to date.



I found the boiler very interesting and will give them a call tomorrow to get a complete manual and ask some questions. I've never come across one in my market. I'm always interested in products that are different from my competition so the price wars don't dictate. Too many wholesalers in my market are giving away the mod cons they sell and that is one of the many reasons I sell Viessmann. I'm the only wholesaler in Orange County NY that has it in stock, knows the line and it gives my trade guys a chance to actually sell a product on the product versus price. It gives them the opportunity to make a few extra bucks.



One of the things that I have picked up on in the last 6 months is the lack of knowledgable contractors in my market have.  I don't mean mechanically I mean hydronically. I have some great guys that install radiant, panel rads, condensing boilers, the nitch stuff. They kill these guys that are slinging other brands. The reason is that most homeowners are really not that knowledgeable. They rely on the contractor to give them the correct information to make a sound decision.  Once my guys sit down with them, do a heat loss (the others don't), explain what they would like to install and why, the homeowner begins asking the other contractors bidding the same job questions concerning their boiler and installation. What we are seeing is that its not the boiler that is getting the job its the knowledge of my contractors that are installing Viessmann.



It just seems that everyone is tossing around mod cons like they are 3 section oil boilers with coils. Cut out, put in, get paid, walk away and there are some wholesalers that are selling them the same way.

Are you trying to get into Rhode Island or Waterloo? I'm asking because once the dust settles are the holidays I plan on putting together a bunch of guys to go to Viessmann RI. They will customize a class for us so let me know if you'd like to go. You are more than welcome. Once I get feedback from my guys on what type of class I could let you know. You can drop me an e-mail anytime.

SpeyFitter

IBC

You probably haven't seen IBC where you come from because IBC hasn't really expanded to the eastern USA, yet, anyways. They do have a network in the midwestern USA that is picking up, and they have expanded well accross Canada as far as I know, especially Western Canada.  Their head office and manufacturing facility is located in Vancouver, BC, (I live & work in VAncouver BC and suburbs).  I've been to their head office many times to pick up service stuff i.e. various gaskets, etc, for servicing on top of some previous training.

We have a local Langley, BC Viessmann which is a half hour drive away, and I've had trouble getting anything from them and when I asked if they could keep my name on file for future academy sessions I basically was told that I had to wait until the academy dates were announced and then send a form in, which I found odd because why couldn't they keep my name on file?

Now when you say 115' combined length on 2", that's 115 divided total intake and exhaust?

When you call IBC, I'm sure they can email you a more recent manual, as well as ask for some of their technical literature, for example on heat exchanger cleaning and stuff like that, as well as their multiple boiler set up memo. It will outline some of their features a little more in depth.

Viess

IBC vs Viessmann.

Viessmann Incorporated in 1917

Viessmann  holds over 150 patients in several countries around the world.

Viessmann first to use stainless steel in their heaters.

Viessmann has been a driving force and innovator in the Heating Industry for a very long time. With far to many first to mention here.

Viessmann is a private company that does not have to pay dividends to share holders.

Viessmann is then able to put allot of money back into R and D.

What I see happening in todays world and it's not just this industry, is reverse engineering. Someone comes up with an innovative product. Then the competitor takes it apart reassembles it slightly different and Voila! A new product is born. Unless it has a DNA, nothing is safe.

IBC, founded in 1994

PS: I'd get over the whole they won't email me thing. Your customers should be given a choice based on the facts not feelings. IMHO Viess.

SpeyFitter

We could sit here all day and compare

I'm just suggesting to give IBC some consideration, and I never said Viessmann didn't built great boilers or heating equipment, or that their contribution to the heating world wasn't worth noting.

But like all things in the world, just because you are first, doesn't mean you're the best. For example: Ford was the first to create the automotive assembly line way back when with the Model T, but Toyota perfected car assembly with lean manufacturing nearly 50 years later after observing the assembly line and it's inefficiencies. Lean manufacturering and lean thinking are tools now utilized to turn around many different types of companies, not just auto manufacturers. (as an example).