Experiment

Glen

according to the local gas inspector - our firm is the only one that regularly tests as a matter of good service. Two other companies have the gear - but the boss doesn't let it out of the office. We use a PCA 25 on all things oil, and a Kane May Quintox (great machine!)for our commerical/industrial gas burner setups. Factory set ups??? What are those?? All conditions must be tested in the field! Capital costs aside - recalibration alone is in the 1000 buck range per year. And yes we charge for the equipment rental - it offsets the annual charges. And the best bonus - all our clients look at their printouts and smile. A while ago I posted a pic of a Vitola (oil) - first test was +4500 ppm CO before I pulled the hose with number 10 smoke on the third pull. Local service tech had set it up by eye! Mandatory testing is necessary but rarely done. It may be that efforts like yours will make it happen - keep at it!

Mark Hunt

Posted this on another thread


but I would REALLY like to try this.

Anyone reading this, call the 3 top companies in your area and ask if they include digital combustion analysis on the annual clean and tune. If no, ask if it is available at extra cost.

Post your finding here.

Do NOT name the companies you called. Just their responses.

Mark H

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Rodney Summers

i will do it for you tomorrow mark. also is electronic the best way to go. so if someone is looking to have there burner tuned should they get a company who uses electronic?

thank you
Jason

tonypete

A HO's perspective on CO testing

I've been following the CO test posts with interest.

Last month I was shopping for a pro to replace an ancient gas hot water boiler for my baseboard system. As such, I called four heating 'professionals' whose ads specified they did boilers. One of the Q's I asked them was whether or not they did combustion testing after a new install.

Of the four; two asked - what's that? (No kidding). The other two said they did not test after an install. Of those two, one said they he never does a C. test on a residential system and it isn't needed. Apparently, 'residential' flame is different than 'commercial' flame right guys? The fourth one said he'd do it as an add on.

Just FYI - they did as well with the "Will you do a manual J calc?" and "explain to me what primary/secondary piping is" questions.

I didn't call the "find a pro" contact (only one listed) yet as I thought he was too far away. After this experience I will. Betcha he gets the job.

For what it's worth I'm in central Ohio.

Mark Hunt

Yup


The digital analysers alone give a real time read out of what is happening during the combustion process.

The old shaker bottle only samples one gas, CO2. That is only a small portion of the picture. O2 and CO complete the picture. Again, in real time.

I REALLY appreciate your help here Jason!

I could do this, but my findings might be viewed as biased.

Mark H

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Mark Hunt

EXCELLENT!


BRAVO!!

Thank you SO much for that feed back!

MORE MORE!!!

Good luck with your project.

Mark H

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Robert O'Connor_11

> BRAVO!!

>

> Thank you SO much for that feed

> back!

>

> MORE MORE!!!

>

> Good luck with your

> project.

>

> Mark H

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 238&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_

will smith_4

Mark-

What's considered a standard residential clean and check? Pull the flue, check for obstructions. Pull the skin, clean the flue passages, clean the burners, pilot assembly. Check the controls/safeties/pumps. I have a Bacharach combustion flu gas analyzer that I paid just at 2 grand for. Calibration/sensor replacement ain't cheap, so when I break that puppy out, there is a charge above and beyond, and to be honest, it's used only on commercial apps where dialing in is called for, and where the customer calls for it. I use it on my family's systems, but I have yet to be wrong after a full cleaning and primary air adjustment to get the flame right. A good combustion analyzer is expensive, and upkeep costs! In fact, Bacharach would sell a lot less of their analyzers if more people knew just how MUCH upkeep they required up front. There are cheaper ones out there, but then again, there are CHEAPER ones out there. Long story short, great service to sell, but you can't give it away.

Mark Hunt

Absolutely


you should be paid for your talent. No arguement here.

But you must know that you are in a minority of contractors just by owning a digital analyser. That is the point I am making.

As far as up-keep, I don't know what you're talking about. Besides O2 sensors, we have never had to repair or replace our 125's. The O2 sensors last about 2 years and we replace them ourselves. Small investment with a good return if you use them. We have found more situations that would have gone unnoticed had we not tested. Our testing eqiupment has more than paid for themselves many times over.

Thanks for the response Will!

Mark H

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Jim_47

Digital Electronic combustion testing.

> you should be paid for your talent. No

> arguement here.

>

> But you must know that you are

> in a minority of contractors just by owning a

> digital analyser. That is the point I am

> making.

>

> As far as up-keep, I don't know what

> you're talking about. Besides O2 sensors, we have

> never had to repair or replace our 125's. The O2

> sensors last about 2 years and we replace them

> ourselves. Small investment with a good return if

> you use them. We have found more situations that

> would have gone unnoticed had we not tested. Our

> testing eqiupment has more than paid for

> themselves many times over.

>

> Thanks for the

> response Will!

>

> Mark H

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 238&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_

Rodney Summers

hi mark quick question if the guys o2 sensor is bad could that screw up all the other numbers like co and excess air and co2.

thank you
Jason

Jim_47

Digital Electronic combustion testing.

Combustion testing should be done after EVERY annual tune-up. Yes EVERY tune-up.
Build it into your charge or charge additionally for it, but you cannot find some of the problems we have found without instruments. .
If speaking in round numbers, if it costs $1000 to heat a home, and you were able to find 3% more in efficiency by tuning a residential boiler, you just saved the homeowner $30.00!!!!!! Estimate that you only find 1.5% ON AVERAGE per home, and you do 100 cleanings and tuneups per year. If you charges $10.00 more per cleaning because you tune and test every appliance. Thats $1000.00 more in your pocket and on average $500.00 more for your customers. SOME customers sae even more. When a boiler is set up from the factory, it is set up with the nozzle and air settings for MOST applications. I have found from 4 boiler companies and the two burner companies that the average set up was not correct out of the box. I had notified all of the six companys and they all pointed the finger at each other. It was Beckett and Carlin that listened in the end and assisted in straighting the problem. I would have never found the problem without instruments.
I have read it here on the wall before, TEST EVERY job!

Mark Hunt

Quick answer


Yes.

I have also seen a low battery condition cause some wacky readings as well.

Thanks Jason.

Mark H

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Mark Hunt

Good post!


You said it!

Mark H

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ScottMP

I would NEVER

expect a boiler to come from the factory pre-set.

They don't know the field conditions its going into. Also from the warehouse to the suppler to my job .... thats ALOT of trucking and alot of bouncing around.

Anyone who installs a boiler and walks away without a test is leaving a dangerous situation.

Scott

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Supply House Rick

Here's my answer

I am counting Comfortable Home Technologies first...

1. Yes
2. NO
3. NO

2. "they are set up by manufacturer"
3. "I can tell by eye if it's OK"

Do not let anyone in your house if the answer is NO
Happy New Year

Long Beach Ed

Hard to Believe

I did call three oil companies on Long Island and as I suspected, all of them adjust the burner "by eye" annually.

What I find so hard to believe in reading this thread is that guys would install equipment without setting up the burner. God only knows what kind of smoke that thing is putting out.

The oil companies around here had just about done themselves in forcing oil conversions because of service like this. But I did expect better of installers.

Long Beach Ed

Rodney Summers

well i called up 3 in my area Connecticut and they all include testing and they use electronic testing equipment with annual cleaning

one guy said that once it's set you don't really have to check it every year and we almost never have to make adjustments just change the nozzle oil filter strainer and clean it and your good to go. ;-)

thanks
Jason

[Deleted User]

1 for 3 in Denver...

and the 1 that responded positively had to ask her supervisor, because she wasn't sure. I suspect that they don't, but said they would just to set the hook...

No suprises here:-)

ME

Xc8p2dC_2

> well i called up 3 in my area Connecticut and

> they all include testing and they use electronic

> testing equipment with annual cleaning

>

> one guy

> said that once it's set you don't really have to

> check it every year and we almost never have to

> make adjustments just change the nozzle oil

> filter strainer and clean it and your good to go.

> ;-)

>

> thanks Jason



Will Do

I have a NEW Peerless DE, that is going to be replaced with a MOD/CON >> Will be getting 3 estimates>> you bet that question will be asked

Xc8p2dC_2

Will Do

I have a NEW Peerless DE, that is going to be replaced with a MOD/CON >> Will be getting 3 estimates>> you bet that question will be asked

Jim Davis_3

Mark's question was how many use an analyzer intitially or have that option. The second question should be is how many know what the analyzer is telling them. If you look at CO2 or Excess Air or Efficiency you do not know how to use it. The BTU's of natural gas can vary from 950 BTUs per cu ft up to 1100 BTUs per cu ft. If you use the preset(you hope!)factory settings your 100,000 btu appiance is either 95,000 or 110,000. Vent sizing and mechanical room pressure also change how any particulat appliance may operate and I know these are not factory set at all. Analyzers measure 3 fairly accurate readings. All the other calculations could be off 10% to 20% and are useless for any diagnostics.

Tundra

I didn't bother with the phone calls. DIGITAL? Most of them don't even own a wet kit. I have seen many system that are over twenty years old and I have to drill a test hole. Most of the installs done locally are not put in by someone that will ever go back to maintain the system. I have shown more that one installer the first combustion analizer, of any kind, that they have ever seen. I have seen many boiler installed by an illiterate. This is not libel or even an exageration, it is a fact. I use a Testo 325-1. I do not charge extra for it. I get so much work from the quality of work it allows me to do I feel it has more than paid for itself.

Mark Hunt

Thanks Jason


But I do take exception to the statement that once a unit is set up it does not need to be checked every year.

Things can change ten seconds after you leave. What if a customer decideds to have a commercial sized gas stove installed with a 1000cfm exhaust fan two days after you set the system up? The exhaust fan now depressurizes the house so much that the flue gases are sucked into the house. On our web page there is a letter from a gentleman in whose house we found just this situation. Who would have guessed that remodeling the kitchen could get you killed??

Unless one can guarantee that the nozzle they replace another with is EXACTLY the same, they can't guarantee that the burn is the same. Ever looked at how small those nozzle holes are? How could you know that what you used was the same as the last one without testing?? Just because it says .80 or .65 on the case doesn't guarantee anything.

You have exposed yet another misconception in the heating industry!

Thanks again!

Mark H

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Jim_47

more on testing

The situation I have mentioned was when the recent decision to ship equipment with higher than 100psi oil pump settings.approx late 1990's
Boilers were being sent out with the nozzles for the 100psi pump settings and the pumps were being sent out set at 140psi. (22% more fuel!!!) After sitting on the bucket and trying to tune in another companies install (it was producing soot so they called me for help) I found that the burner could not meet my desired readings. After trying to open the air all the way it hit me to Re-check the nozzle. After pulling the assy out it hit me to recheck the pump pressure.

After determining the problem I went back over all my own installs and had to correct about 25% of them. Iffy readings kept me up at night. All of the boilers were set to the mfg specs, even the nozzles were the nozzles spelled out in the literature. The oil pumps were set at a higher than spec'd pressure. I dropped the nozzle size and the boilers stopped roaring and the Efficiency came up. Excess air also came into what I felt was more exceptable. After calling the boiler comanies they pointed the finger at the burner companies and after talking to the burner companies the told me they ship what is asked for. I was able to get someone from each burner company to commit to me that they would follow through on the discovered situation. My suppliers next batch of boilers were set up correctly.
Testing saves fuel and LIVES. Period.
The reason for testing is to save, lives being the most important.

steve_93

Tundra, your right... at least in the area I work.

Most don't own combustion analyzers and the ones that do don't know how to use them!!!

We can all thank the pros, the ones that do those 30 minute tuneups and charge $50 and have the ability to set a burner by eye!!!

It's just amazing how often we service new customers systems and see that the system had been neglected. (Only thing done is change nozzle and filter) and some of this by big companies.

Unknown

Us Meenan boys

test each and every oil burning appliance we install . It's the old fashioned wet kits , but we do test . Hopefully someday the digital analyzers will come down in price to make a wet kit obsolete .

Hey Scott , how are you doing ? Someone posted you had the flu ? Hope you're feeling better .

GW

CYA

Anyone who has been through the Jim Davis school of CO gets the shock and awe session in the beginning of class.

Actually, if you don't want to know just how liable you are as a heating technician or installer, you SHOULDN'T go see Jim Davis...you'll lose lots of sleep.

I have several hundred printouts of jobs from the last few years. Really, if someone gets hurt in a house that 2 cent piece of paper could indeed save you assets in the court room. You have given reasonable proof that the unit was running properly when you had your 10 little digits on the unit (fingers that is).

The last guy to touch the unit is a rotten egg- do yourself a favor and get some digital equipment and some NCI training (Jim Davis), you'll be glad you did. I've been 4 times! I always learn something every time I go. If you can catch it all in the first class, you're a genius!

Gary

Gary Wilson, Owner
Wilson Services, Inc.
Easthampton, MA
413-527-3317
gary@wilsonph.com
www.wilsonph.com

We mean business! We’re proud to be associated with:
ACCA http://www.acca.org
NATE certified http://www.natex.org
MASS COOLSMART QIV CERTIFIED http://macoolsmart.com/index.html
National Comfort Team http://www.nationalinstitute.com/
Radiant Panel Association http://www.rpa-info.com
Better Business Bureau http://www.bbb.org
Western Mass Home Builders Association http://hbawm.com/


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GW

my signiture

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Ragu

Same Thing Here

Nobody around here has gone digital yet (myself included). The first 2 things I bought when I went on my own were Liability Insurance and a Bacharach kit.

Only one of the local independents has a kit, but they think they do better by eye. I asked them how they come up with test numbers and they admitted that they "fake them". The sad thing is that when they DID use their kit, they just took readings, jotted them down and left. They had 4 or 5 new installs that they left at 8% CO2. I went back and showed them how to adjust for good efficiencies, but they are "eyeballing" again.

I live by my test kit, and use it EVERY time.

Unknown

Mark just one correction

the old Fyrite could also check oxygen the CO2 was a red chemical the O2 was blue.

Unknown

How much interest in Training

I get 10 to 15 people to sign up for most of my classes. My combustion class gets the smallest sign up all the time.

I have a three day class coming up Feb 14 thru 16 so far I have one signed up. By the way I will run the class for just that one guy if I have to. We will actually be testing equipment and using three different combustion testers in the class. That will be one more informed person out there saving lives.

Mark I called the three largest contractors in my area, I really did not have to call I knew what the answer would be. The largest tests oil but not gas the others hire out the oil tests and I quote "the gas company will do the gas." The local gas company does service only to contract customers. They do limited combustion testing, but do test for ambient CO. Any CO they shut off the equipment and tell them to hire someone to service the unit unless it is one of their contract customers.

Here is one for everyone, How many test gas ovens?

JC-TRX250R

OK I work for a fairly large oil/lp company and we use the conventional bacharach for oil and nothing for gas. After reading Marks other thread I have taken a strong stance about testing for CO now. I approached our manager about purchasing a digital tester and the answer I got was that I will talk with headquarters about this. I already know what the answer wil be on this so I am going to buy my own just so I can sleep good at night. Since I am buying one on my own cost will be a factor. Ideally it will be the 215 but I don't know if I can afford it. How is the UEI that I seen in the REMichel catalog or the Testo? Both are cheaper and more in my price range. I know I know you get what you pay for but I am also on a budget since x-mas just got over with.

And before someone states that if they will not buy it for you, you should find someplace else to work, well jobs are hard to come by now and none of the service companies in this area have them, so even if I did find a new place of employment I will still not be able to test.

S Ebels

Mark

I went to a phone booth (beware of caller ID) and called 5 P&H companies in the Cadillac-Houghton Lake area and asked. Not one said they did CA on anything. Oil, gas, new, old, commercial, residential. 3 of the 5 asked "What do you mean by combustion analysis?" One flatly stated "No" and elaborated no more than that. The other one replied with the infamous "factory set" song and dance. Three of these companies are fairly large with multiple shop locations throughout Michigan. It was really and truly disheartening to hear the replies.

I also called both of the state mechanical inspectors that I work with 90% of the time. Both said that my guys and myself are the only people they have ever seen using an analyzer outside of huge commercial installs. Huge as in multiple millions of BTU's. The State Boiler inspector said he has seen a couple of the larger commercial boiler companies haul one out but they ususally only have one tech that does testing on initial setup. These again a companies that go all over the state on large commercial stuff like schools, hospitals, and industrial applications.

It is truly sad just to imagine the wasted efficiency that is caused by hundreds of thousands of out of tune heating appliances in this state let alone the whole US!

It's also no wonder our trade and industry suffers from a "bad name". It seems as though 50% of the folks in the trade are ignorant of these issues and the other 49% don't flat out care!

BTW, I don't charge "extra" for using the CA. It's as much a cost and part of a job as driving there in the truck. Just as basic too.

[Deleted User]

combustion testing

I'm an oil burner tech,my company does not do testing as part of annual service, HOWEVER I do ,every time. Boss wouldn't buy a digital so I purchased one for my own. I got a Testo 325-m . Saved some pennies by not getting printer ,pens are cheeper. Results go on the cust recietp and on the equiptment. Can't work without it! YOU CANNOT SET IT UP BY EYE ! Anyone that does should just step away! footnote my boss has replaced my thermo couple on two occasions as well as batteries, filters and such items.Some other techs I work with think its not nessary to test.

Unknown

Tundra

We too see jobs from time to time where a company has sworn they did a complete test and we don't find a test hole. We just assumed that they were buying some kind of remarkable flue pipe from their favorite distributor called "Self-healing Smokepipe"! Here is a picture of some that we found on a job doing just that......healing!

Glenn Stanton

Manager of Training

Burnham Hydronics

U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.

Nron_17

tester

I have a testo unit that I just replaced the o2 and co cartridges in it works great although the sensors arent cheep they are replaceable wiout sending the unit in and that helps look at what is around your area and who has replacment parts , offer to due tests for other people when they do there start up and you will pay it off quick and ask your employer to pay you extra to do the test with it it is a perisable item that can be charged to the client and he should be willing to pay when you use it , especialy when it reduces service call backs

Bob Harper

signs of a good company

Gary's sign got me to thinking. How about service tags and stickers? Do they leave one of those tags with all the combustion analysis data along with the nozzle type and size, tank, etc.?

I'd like to see a law that requires a tag stating the input firing rate in BTUs, nozzle size, pump pressure, and baro. damper setting.

I have to renew my contract for oil this week so I'll shop around Mark and poll them. My current company does use a FRP 125 with print out. He warms it up and runs it right next to the boiler! I'll ask them if they can calibrate it outside in some fresh air befor bringing it in. I discarded the old rusty pipe with the test hole in the elbow right off the appliance collar. At least the hole is 1.5 duct diameters away now.

Mark, if someone REALLY wants to impress me, they can flip their meter over and show me a calibration sticker. This info. should be posted on the combustion analysis report. I like my Ultra Trac 2K where it shows the last calibration at every startup. Something for the C/A mfrs to think about.

To save costs, buy the calibration kit, use it on a regular schedule, keep records in your office, and put a calibration sticker on your meter. If you are responding to an Ooops!, you'd better run a fresh cal. check that day.

On oil, I could ramble on: how many contractors pull the pipe and actually inspect the chimney breeching for blockage or signs of deterioration? Perform a draft test without the appliance connected? Clean the HX annually? Replace the nozzle and filter(s) annually? Even pull the tray, check the 'trodes, Cad cell, transformer, etc.?

one last one Mark. How many HVAC contractors have ever performed a Worst Case Depressurization test? Actually measured the Combustion Appliance Zone and calculated the MUA requirements?

Great thread Mark!

Mark Hunt

I stand corrected


never saw the blue stuff though.

Thanks Tim!

Mark H

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Boilerpro_3

No need to call

In the 2 years since I began testing (mostly atmospheric gas) I have not seen one test hole in any of the equipment I looked at, unless it was factory made. Even on some of the largest boilers in the area, they were way off when I tested them. I service six counties. I have found that probably 2/3 of the atmospheric boilers from the 1960s have high CO readings (around 700 to 900 PPM)in the stack when fired at the factory rating. Nearly all have quiet, "clean" looking stable blue flames. After cleaning the burners, almost all appear rather short on Oxygen (25%), so when I open the shutters and cut the gas pressure at the manifld slightly, the CO drops very quickly. Usually this brings them down to about 125 PPM air free, still higher than I like, but about the best I can get them to do with tuning. I suspect a good cleaning of the heat exchanger may help these numbers some, however my own old back up boiler is quite clean and still tends to run CO air free near 100PPM. None of these boilers have the newer lanced steel burners, which seem to run cleaner. Also, I find that many of the newer atmospherics run with 50% excess air or more, while the olders models are always under this.

I have one boiler right now that as soon as the front cover is put back on the CO jumps way up. I already cut the gas presssure and with the door off the Co is acceptable. Burners are nice and clean, so the heat exhanger will be getting cleaned in the next week. I strongly suspect poor design as the problem, though, as I have seen sooted up versions of this boiler before.

I have an Oil fired Kewanee with a gas converion installed that was service for years by one of the oldest and respected companies in the area (they probably installed it in the 1950's) Ran tests and found over 300% excess air, running about 68% efficiency, CO OK. Chimney draft was reduced and shutters closed down and a through cleaning of the tubes and combustion area and its now running about 130% excess air, a bit lower CO, and about 80% efficiency. I missed that it was being fired below the recommended minimum on the burner, so I need to go back and make a few more adjustments that will probably bump the efficiency even higher and maybe drop CO even further. High gas bills were the homeowners complaint, DUH! Btw, they are heating about 2,000 sq ft of 1950s home with 64,000 btu/hr input here in chilly northern Illinois.

And the horror stories continue.....


I am seriously thinking about putting this on the back of my van, so whenever I am stopped in traffic, someone can read it.

!!!YOUR FAMILY MAY BE IN SERIOUS DANGER!!!

If your heating contractor doesn't test for deadly Carbon monoxide during regular service.
If they don't give you a copy of combustion analysis results on your heating equipment.

Please do not be one of the thousands that die or are injured each year by this silent killer.

Boilerpro

Brian

View from Ontario

Great Post Mark

I don't have an oil ticket,I'm a gas guy.But the few times the customer has wanted an oil boiler I've told them I'll do the hydronics and venting but they should get whoever is supplying their oil to do oil hook-up and fireing (while I'm there of course).Every time this has been done they do a CA and smoke without being asked.So I think that it is more common in this area.I also do a CA test on all my gas boilers.
One thing that installers or service techs may overlook or disregard is combustion air in the room that the appliance is in.That way if the homeowner puts in a 1000cfm range hood the gas/oil appliance is still protected.


Thanks
Dobber